Open thread weekend

by Judith Curry

It’s your turn to introduce topics for discussion.

295 responses to “Open thread weekend

  1. Imagine we are ten years later in 2023 and we draw an extension of D. Roy Spencer’s temperature profile ten years into the future. Suppose it (a) goes down, (b) stays flat, (c) goes up a little, or (d) goes up a lot. Suppose we compare with the Nino index or other factors. What should we conclude from these observations? What are we looking for over the next ten years?

    • Donald, you ask “What are we looking for over the next ten years?”

      I dont think anyone has the slightest idea. No-one understands what causes natural variaitons in the earth’s climate sufficiently well to make any sort of accurate prediction. I know what I would like to happen, but that is of no help whatsoever.

      However, what we can conclude with reasonable certainty, is that whatever happens, it will be like a Sword of Damocles hanging over the warmists. Unless global temperatures start to rise rapidly in that time period, I suspect there will be very few politicians in positions of real power who will be willing to fund CAGW any more.

      But let me quote Herman Kahn, from the Hudson Institute, again. “Nothing would be more surprising, than that nothing surprising is going to happen”.

    • The ocean might do its own thing, but the land should continue to rise 0.3 C per decade as it has done quietly for the last three, and the summer sea-ice should be gone by then.

      • R. Gates aka Skeptical Warmist

        Jim D.

        Ocean and land are closely connected via the flow of energy between them. Taken as a complete system (including cryosphere, biosphere, and lithosphere) the Earth system will very likely continue to accumulate energy over the next 10 years as it has for the past 30 or 40 or more. GH gases never sleep.

      • Really and truly sad.

      • The ocean slow-down does not seem to have moderated the land warming in the last decade, so while I agree they are coupled, the land may be freer to warm directly in response to forcing than many think. The land and Arctic are providing outlet valves for the accumulating heat by warming themselves, even as the ocean surface doesn’t respond much.

      • R. Gates aka Skeptical Warmist

        Jim D.,

        It would help me if you defined your terms more closely. When you say “land” are you talking about lithosphere or troposphere 2m off the ground?

        Yes we know the cryosphere globally has been declining through taking in some of the accumulating energy, and the Arctic permafrost is part of this. The Arctic troposphere has also been warming, but this has very low thermal inertia and is not a place the excess energy is being stored directly, but indirectly in the higher humidity in the region and thus the thermal, latent, and gravitational potential energy this represents.

      • R. Gates, by land I mean land surface temperature that governs part of the Planck response to the forcing change. The land surface is contributing to the Planck response even if the ocean surface hasn’t been recently. For a dF there is a dT (Planck response) and a dH/dt (storage). The energy imbalance is the extent to which the dT isn’t keeping up with the dF, which is going in to the storage (mostly OHC).

    • R. Gates aka Skeptical Warmist

      Donald,

      Based on the past 30 to 40 year trend, and the continual accumulation of GH gases, the total energy of the Earth system should continue to rise over the next decade. There is no physical reason it will stop or reverse. See my post below. Natural variability may move the energy from one part of the system to another or change its form, but as long as GH gases continue to accumulate, so will energy.

  2. Arctic sea ice extent decline is very much following parallel to the average line. http://nsidc.org/data/seaice_index/images/daily_images/N_stddev_timeseries.png

    The expedition to row through the NW passage this year seems to be having a lot of trouble.

    All in all, I am resonably hopeful that this year’s melt will be significantly less than last year’s, and we will have a minimum extent area well above 4 msk.

    • Jim Cripwell | July 27, 2013 at 12:12 pm |

      Huh. And I look at the data you show in detail, and see the past 30 days represents the fastest one month decline in sea ice extent in the Arctic in the NSIDC records.

      They’ve had to invent a whole new term to describe the state of Arctic Sea ice, “decayed ice”, below the low end of their former scale.

      When you say you’re “reasonably hopeful”, how is that reasonable, again?

      Did you _read_ what NSIDC says in its analyses?

      Because they say the opposite of what you claim.

      And the expedition to row through the Arctic Sea along the NW passage (http://www.vancouversun.com/lastfirst/index.html for their blog, for those with a fascination with that sort of thing) isn’t the only venture having trouble with the atypical distribution of decayed ice. Last year, Shell had to abandon its drilling efforts fruitlessly, too. Oh, and what’s the biggest holdback for the rowers?

      “There’s no question a smaller vessel like a kayak would fare far better in such wind with less weight and less wind hindering movement but with a smaller vessel comes the disadvantages of limited carrying capacity and sea worthiness.”

      Their boat is too big.

      Less Arctic Sea ice doesn’t equal safer Arctic. It equals unleashed Arctic.

      When the former Arctic cyclones happened over stable ice, they were one thing: over decayed ice that they chew up like so much soft porridge and open water?

      That’s a whole new brand of maelstrom.

      • Bart, you write “Did you _read_ what NSIDC says in its analyses?”

        The latest NSIDC analysis is dated 17th July, which is 10 days ago. The rate of loss of Arctic sea ice exrent in the last 30 days, to 26 July is nowhere near the fastest on record. It is roughly average since records began

    • Jim Cripwell | July 27, 2013 at 1:02 pm |

      Could you point to another year with a 30 day drop for this date exceeding 2013’s?

      • 2007 has the biggest 15 day drop

        2007 179 to 194 -2.08497 million sq km

        and the biggest 40 day drop

        2007 178 to 218 -4.48215

        and the biggest 33 day drop

        2007 174 to 207 -3.85051

        But no year has more Antarctic Ice Extent on this day …

      • If you change to % the largest 30 day percentage drop was:

        2007 Day 178 to 208
        Drop -3.60088
        % -34.66

        2013 is 2nd in terms of percentage over 30 days

        2013 day 173 to 203
        drop -3.65737
        % -32.75

      • For 15 day drop percentages, 2013 is 4th behind: 2012 , 2007 and 2011.

      • sunshinehours1 | July 27, 2013 at 8:31 pm |

        Yeah, yeah. 30 days. For the same date.

        You cherry picked near dates, and went with percentage rather than absolute.

        But sure, 2nd to the remarkable 2007 drop is fine, too.

        And thanks for confirming the surge of Antarctic continental ice sloughed off the shoulders of the continent to spill onto the sea in ever increasing and ever-thinning extent to melt away in the southern oceans.

      • “the surge of Antarctic continental ice sloughed off the shoulders of the continent to spill onto the sea”

        Ha ha ha ha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

        You joker Bart.

        “Out of 366 possible daily records in the Antarctic, only 7 were set before 2000”

        http://sunshinehours.wordpress.com/2013/07/28/5th-daily-record-in-6-days-for-antarctic-sea-ice-extent/

        As for the 30 day thing, I didn’t cherry pick anything. The code I used was written a long time ago and it just searches the biggest drop in any X day period.

      • Bart R: “the surge of Antarctic continental ice sloughed off the shoulders of the continent to spill onto the sea”

        What happened to the “the surge of Greenland and Canadian/Russian continental ice sloughed off the shoulders of the continent to spill onto the sea”?

      • sunshinehours1 | July 28, 2013 at 10:46 am |

        The poor cherrypicker blames his tools.

        You pretended to invalidate a claim.

        You instead supported it despite your best efforts to obfuscate.

        sunshinehours1 | July 28, 2013 at 11:32 am |

        What happened to the “the surge of Greenland and Canadian/Russian continental ice sloughed off the shoulders of the continent to spill onto the sea”?

        It melted in the past 30 days. But not to worry, more’s sloughing off all the time, at an increasing pace. That’s still melting faster every summer than it plus the oceanic-origin ice builds up all year long.

      • sunshinehours1 | July 28, 2013 at 10:46 am |

        By the way, could we see the code?

        Maybe have access to the running application?

        Sounds awfully selfish to hoard something like that just to yourself.

      • I think you two may be talking at cross-purposes: Sunshinehours1 is sharing with us stories he has read in the paper, while Bart is referring to something completely different.
        For Sunshinehours1’s benefit, here is what Bart is talking about:

    • Nice argument when applied to almost any subject.

      Those people who don’t believe a planet killing asteroid is on the way should not object to us spending 100 trillion on a planetary defensive laser system.

  3. The CRU seems to see the pause, you have to ask
    1. What caused the rise 1910-1940?
    2. What caused the drop/pause 1940-1980?
    3. what caused the pause since approx 2000?

    • I guess that increased CO2 having enhanced the greenhouse effect, causing an imbalance in the Earth’s energy received/reradiated, and thus an accumulation of heat on Earth has failed to eliminate underlying variability.
      Now, if you can just point us to which model predicts such heat accumulation would elminate variability, we can throw that model out.
      So…where is it?

  4. Opps missed the link
    http://www.cru.uea.ac.uk/

  5. R. Gates aka Skeptical Warmist

    As a Skeptic it’s my charge to look for evidence that would refute or alter all things that I hold to be provisionally true. This is the only way that my scientific understanding is able to evolve. Some of you here might have important data or studies that could assist me in altering or even abandoning my current “Warmist” perspective. Specifically, here is the general perspective I hold to be provisionally true:

    Adding anthropogenic GH gases to the atmosphere increases the total energy content of the Earth system by slowing the rate at which energy flows from Earth to space (i.e. more energy enters the Earth system than leaves). This additional energy may be stored in any form (latent, thermal, biological, kinetic, etc.) in any part of the Earth system (atmosphere, cryosphere, hydrosphere, biosphere, lithosphere). Based on the best current data we have, the total energy of the Earth system, summed across all spheres, has been steadily increasing for at least the past 30 to 40 years without pause, and closely paralleling the growth in Anthropogenic GH gases over this period.

    Now, if anyone has data that refutes or contradicts any of this, please pass it my way!

    • R gates

      It seems to have been getting warmer-in fits and starts- for 350 years. Prior to that it was cold and prior to that warm.

      Bearing in mind these oscillations it is very difficult to see mans hand in the current warming, which is by no means global. The best documented country in the world has been cooling for a decade

      http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/hadobs/hadcet/
      tonyb

      • R. Gates aka Skeptical Warmist

        Hi Tony,

        Always good to hear from you!

        Yes, the Earth system “may” have been accumulating energy for the past 350 years, but one measurement of one part of that system (and not even the largest part) is not enough to know, so we can’t (or at least I can’t) make that assumption. Certainly there has been warming of parts of the system from the depths of the LIA, but unfortunately, CO2 and other GH gases begin to accumulate at about the same time the LIA was fading from the beginnings of the industrial revolution, so it becomes rather difficult to even isolate natural variability from anthropogenic forcing even in measuring one part of the system over the past century at least. Anthropogenic factors brought CO2 from 275 to 300 ppm by about 1900. should we assuming this forcing was zero?

      • Matthew R Marler

        R. Gates aka skeptical warmist: Anthropogenic factors brought CO2 from 275 to 300 ppm by about 1900. should we assuming this forcing was zero?

        It is a reasonable hypothesis. The current collection of data and models do not permit a reasonable conclusion, in my opinion. Now that we have had 15 years of almost no warming with a much higher CO2 concentration, it looks quite reasonable to think that the change from 275 to 300 might have had zero effect.

      • R. Gates aka Skeptical Warmist

        Matthew M.,

        Your brain seems to be stuck in the troposphere in terms of your thinking about energy in the Earth system. The troposphere has extremely low thermal inertia compared to the rest of the system. Why would you base your conclusion about long-term energy accumulation in a system from its lowest thermal inertia portion? Makes no sense.

      • Matthew R Marler,

        See, the problem is that the global surface air temperature was the cause for concern about catastrophic global warming only when the reported temperature trends showed marked increases. Now that they do not, we have to look to areas of the climate that we don’t even measure so we can maintain the momentum toward ever greater government…I mean ever better science.

        Now, if we should actually start taking temperature measurements of the deep sea where we claim the “heat” is “hiding,” and it is not there, don’t worry, we will find another way to justify our continuing energy jihad.

        As the Prophet Hansen, may peace be upon Him, has said, global warming isn’t just catastrophic, it’s going to be “apocalyptic.”

        http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/10/opinion/game-over-for-the-climate.html?_r=0

        Besides, we gotta get paid.

      • Matthew R Marler

        R. Gates aka Skeptical Warmist,

        the troposphere has the most reliably measured temperatures. . You can see the trend in temperature over the last 17 years here:http://www.woodfortrees.org/plot/rss/from:1997/plot/rss/from:1997/trend

        If the whole earth system is accumulating energy, as you said, why would the lowest thermal inertia portion of the system show a steadily decreasing temperature? If you can look at these data and still believe that the earth system is still steadily accumulating energy, then you are a believer, not a skeptic.

        You wrote the following: Based on the best current data we have, the total energy of the Earth system, summed across all spheres, has been steadily increasing for at least the past 30 to 40 years without pause, and closely paralleling the growth in Anthropogenic GH gases over this period.

        Tell us where, in those thousands of pages that you read, the accumulated knowledge predicted that there would soon be a 17 year period of steady or reduced temperatures in the troposphere. This 17 year period is about half of the “past 30 to 40 years without pause” that you mentioned, and is the half most pertinent to your syntax: “has been steadily increasing … without pause.”, and “current data”.

        The 17 year span was identified as the minimum length of data to detect at a statistically significant level a change from a previous regime. The other temperature series are not very dissimilar, showing no or little increase in mean sea surface temp, etc, in the best “current” data: the last 10 – 17 years. If this keeps up for 5 – 10 more years, which naturally is not known right now, the case against the standard theory will be unequivocal.

      • R gates

        Getting warmer for 350 years and now a noticeable dip

        http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/05/08/the-curious-case-of-rising-co2-and-falling-temperatures/

        Merely a hiatus or have we reached the logarithmic limits?

        IF the warming is going into the oceans I think you said it would take a thousand years to raise the abyssal temperature by even fractions of a degree

        Tonyb

      • Above I wrote:

        “Now, if we should actually start taking temperature measurements of the deep sea where we claim the “heat” is “hiding,” and it is not there, don’t worry, we will find another way to justify our continuing energy jihad.”

        R. Gates has gracefully proved me correct, now arguing that the “missing heat” is hiding in the grass, on this very thread.

      • TonyB can not even reason properly without completely muddling his argument

        He wrote this
        ” It seems to have been getting warmer-in fits and starts- for 350 years. Prior to that it was cold and prior to that warm.”

        So it has been getting warmer for longer than 350 years?

        Please stay away from technical subjects.

      • Chief Hydrologist

        http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2013/04/21/blogs/dotkaufman.html

        Seriously webster – add something useful or consider yourself an inconsequential twit. The temperature record technical? You’re an idiot with bells on.

    • R. Gates aka Skeptical Warmist

      David W.,

      Nothing in my statement precludes natural variability from moving energy around in the system or other external forcings (solar, volcanic) from adding to or taking energy out of the Earth system. Show me the data that would indicate one of these, rather than the forcing from additional GH gases, was adding energy to the system over the past 30 to 40 years.

    • Matthew R Marler

      R. Gates aka Skeptical Warmist Adding anthropogenic GH gases to the atmosphere increases the total energy content of the Earth system by slowing the rate at which energy flows from Earth to space (i.e. more energy enters the Earth system than leaves). This additional energy may be stored in any form (latent, thermal, biological, kinetic, etc.) in any part of the Earth system (atmosphere, cryosphere, hydrosphere, biosphere, lithosphere). Based on the best current data we have, the total energy of the Earth system, summed across all spheres, has been steadily increasing for at least the past 30 to 40 years without pause, and closely paralleling the growth in Anthropogenic GH gases over this period.

      The idea that the total energy … has been steadily increasing for at least 30-40 years is based on models. The last 15 years worth of data (and some competing models) cast doubt on the “increasing” part of your assertion, though the phrase “steadily increasing” allows some wiggle room for a believer to retain belief. “Closely paralleling” the increase in AGHGs over the last 15 years is clearly not true, unless you allow a loose definition of “closely”. Analyses of rates of change have shown that the rate of warming has been almost uncorrelated with AGHGs over the last 100+ years; whereas the rate of change of CO2 correlates highly with .earth temperature (one of the nice presentations of those relationships was in a talk by Prof Murray Salby, which I think was linked here recently.) Correlations do not tell you which interventions will work, but those two correlations are the opposite of what the AGHGs theory predict.

      The idea that adding anthropogenic GHGs to the earth atmosphere will slow the rate at which energy flows from the earth ignores the non-radiative processes via which the energy is transported through the system. Most importantly, it ignores the transfer of latent energy from the ocean and land surfaces to the upper troposphere via convection and phase changes; it also ignores the possibility that increased transport of water vapor might increase cloud cover and reduce the input of short-wave radiation to the surface. Increased GHG concentrations are predicted to increase total water in the atmosphere, and may increase the rate of transport of the latent energy from the surface to the upper troposphere.

      I think that you mischaracterise “skeptic”. A skeptic is a skeptic ab initio and remains a skeptic until a theory has been substantiated beyond a reasonable doubt. What you describe is a believer checking for reasons to abandon belief.

    • R. Gates,
      Imagine you light a small candle in winter, inside a medieval castle. Are you heating the castle? Sure. Is the crowd very happy? No, they don’t notice the heat. So, “heating”, without quantifying, does not have much meaning.

      • R. Gates the Skeptical Warmist

        Plazame,

        Oceans down to 2000m have been adding roughly 1 x 10^22 Joules per year over the past 10 years, and about 0.5 x 10 ^22 Joules per year over the past 40 (yes, there does appear to be some acceleration in the storage to the oceans). Added to this is the energy the cryosphere has added from the melting of ice. Added to this is the energy the biosphere has added from the additional biomass. This biomass expansion is a fairly new discovery, and is exciting in a of itself. See:

        http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/grl.50563/abstract;jsessionid=DACBD1BD9E71E340FE6A63DE7F7F47F1.d03t04

        I am not sure if any of the climate models take this “greening” into consideration, but they ought to.

      • Plazaeme

        As it was much warmer in medieval times the castle would not have needed heating in the first place, would it? :)
        Tonyb

      • Chief Hydrologist

        Ocean heat content follows net TOA flux – which is overwhelmingly cloud radiatve forcing.

        http://s1114.photobucket.com/user/Chief_Hydrologist/media/Wong2006figure7.gif.html?sort=3&o=127

        The last 10 years have all been cloud radiative forcing as well.

        http://s1114.photobucket.com/user/Chief_Hydrologist/media/AdvancesinUnderstandingTop-of-AtmosphereRadiationVariability-Loebetal2011.png.html?sort=3&o=48

        It is what the data says.

      • Interesting point RG. That increase in greening, if correct, constitutes an increase in what is referred to as embedded energy. This is energy in addition to what is observed as thermal energy increase.

        Because of conservation of energy principles, should the greening decompose, the embedded energy would be released as heat.

        How much is this increase in embedded energy as a proportion that goes into OHC and other warming? Any at all strengthens the AGW argument.

        See how the preponderance of evidence works?

      • R.Gates.

        Thanks. The question is, how does it compare with the models which cause the alarm? And, I wouldn’t put much faith in the pre-Argo data, for obvious reasons.

        Any case, most of climate change scientists, have a theory and models. Some part of the theory has good grounds, but the part that makes it alarming, not at all. And, “science” does not have much meaning. (Just as “heating” without quantifying). You need some critic on knowledge to get an idea about where you are. Normally, difficult predictions come true is the best and most simple way to check. But a consensus is not a way to check a knowledge, and has never been.

    • R. Gates

      You have just stated that you are a “skeptic”.

      And then you have demonstrated exactly what it is that you are “skeptical” about: namely, anything that contradicts or questions the premise that

      the total energy of the Earth system, summed across all spheres, has been steadily increasing for at least the past 30 to 40 years without pause, and closely paralleling the growth in Anthropogenic GH gases over this period.

      You have cited “correlation”, but have not addressed “causation”.

      You state that the global temperature has been “steadily increasing” (limiting this to “the past 30 to 40 years:) but you have not addressed the fact that the global warming has occurred in multidecadal fits and spurts of warming and slight cooling of around 30 years each with an underlying trend of slight warming (ever since we have emerged from a naturally caused past period of colder weather, the LIA), while the “growth in Anthropogenic GH gases” has occurred in a steady exponential trend.

      As a true “skeptic”, these factors lead me to be “skeptical” of a robust statistical correlation between GH gases (CO2) and global temperature; and where there is no robust statistical correlation, the argument for causation is weak.

      Max

      • Chief Hydrologist

        What’s missing is the most momentous 21st century climate event. The 1998/2001 climate shift.

        ‘Figure 3. Earthshine changes in albedo shown in blue, ISCCP-FD shown in black and CERES in red. A climatologically significant change before CERES followed by a long period of insignificant change.’ It is before ARGO as well.

        http://www.bbso.njit.edu/Research/EarthShine/

  6. “Based on the best current data we have, the total energy of the Earth system, summed across all spheres, has been steadily increasing for at least the past 30 to 40 years without pause, and closely paralleling the growth in Anthropogenic GH gases over this period.”

    No data, but a correction.

    Your claim that the “total energy of the Earth, summed across all spheres, has been steadily increasing for at least the past 30 to 40 years without pause, and closely paralleling the growth in Anthropogenic GH gases over this period” is based on on “the best current data we have,” but on the best computer generated models you warmists have.

    Models that don’t include measurements of vast areas of the “spheres” of the climate (deep sea, much of Antarctica, etc.); models that don’t properly account for water vapor or clouds (because you warmists don’t understand them yet – certainly not enough to model them); models that only have the most unreliable data from beyond 10 years ago for large areas of those “spheres;” and models that can’t forecast the date 10 years from now, let alone the temperature. (OK, that’s a bit of exaggeration, but not much.)

    Here’s the deal. First, you warmists actually come up with real data that support your claim, or get at least one of your myriad, expensive, ineffectual computer models to function in a way that generates some level of confidence. Then you can start to demand that others come up with contrary data.

    • This was in reply to R.Gates, the Dogmatic Warmist, immediately above.

      • R. Gates aka Skeptical Warmist

        You made the comment and I asked you what YOU were referring to.

      • No, I was responding to this comment from you:

        “…the largest portions of the Earth system we are currently measuring…”

      • R. Gates aka Skeptical Warmist

        Oceans by heat content and sea level rise, cryosphere by total mass, and biosphere by total area all would indicate a steady to accelerating accumulation of energy in the Earth system.

      • Tsk, tsk, tsk.

        You don’t mean actual data measuring temps at all. Good. I didn’t think so.

        So where do I go to see the reported annual heat content of the Earth climate system as a whole based on “sea level rise, cryosphere by total mass, and biosphere by total area?” And what is the level of precision of the “calculation” of that “data?”

        Can we tell the average total heat content of the oceans within tenths of a degree based on sea level rise and sparss sea surface measurements? How do we calculate the release of heat into the atmosphere by melting ice, apart from existing tropospheric measurements? And where are the calculations with such precision on the average annual addition to the heat content of biomass?

        This is why warmists are so obscurantist. Once you get them to say what they really mean, you see how weak their argument is.

        Thanks for playing.

      • R. Gates the Skeptical Warmist

        Gary,

        You apparently need to be spoon fed, or perhaps this is just a game you played like when you mama fed you outmeal as a baby, and asked you to “open up little Gary and let the airplane fly in…”

        You can look up the ocean heat content data and data for the decline in global ice youself. I’ve given it to others many times, but feel no reason to carry on the tradition of your mama for such a rude little Gary.

      • RG, a lawyer such as Gary shouldn’t be expected to know how to do math-based physics such as calculating energy imbalances.

        That’s what makes these discussions so entertaining… The deniers are pathetically outgunned when it comes to scientific proficiency.

      • Never ask a warmist for their “data,” particularly when they don’t have any, except model generated “data.” Ahh the precision of sea level, ice extent and biomass as a measure of global heat content is legendary…in their own minds.

      • R. Gates aka Skeptical Warmist

        Gary asked:(his words, his question)

        “How do we calculate the release of heat into the atmosphere by melting ice, apart from existing tropospheric measurements?”

        ——
        Now, I hope (and am pretty sure) that most everyone else can see the error of Gary’s reasoning here. I mean, this is fairly elementary thermodynamics isn’t it?

        So, just to set Gary on a better path (and maybe he’ll pull himself away from his beloved Faux News long enough to read this):

        When ice melts it does not release heat into the atmosphere but rather energy flows from atmosphere (or surrounding water) to ice. Thus, when snowflakes or ice FORM, there is an actual release of energy from the water molecules to the atmosphere. You’ve got your flow of energy bass ackwards Gary. Again, turn off Faux News and crack the Thermo 101 book!

    • R. Gates aka Skeptical Warmist

      Gary,

      I need more than your opinion. Give me data to refute the thousands of pages of research I’ve read. If you don’t understand what the basic research is telling us, how can we speak intelligently or have you refute that research intelligently?

      • Dear Dogmatist,

        Just because your Polemics 101 assistant professor told you to always try to set the terms of the debate, does not mean everyone who engages with you will allow you to do so.

        I showed your statement was false, in claiming that you relied on “current data,” when you were relying on “current model;ed data,” which you now transform into “thousands of pages of research.”

        How do I know that you are not relying on data? How do I now that you warmists don’t measure vast swaths of the climate system, can’t model water vapor and clouds? How do I know your models can’t forecast/predict/project worth a damn? Because other, more honest, warmists admit all of the above.

        So no, until you correct the false premise at the center of your question, I see no need to respond to modeled assumptions with real world data.

      • David Wojick

        How did you miss the thousands of pages on natural variability? In that regard here is some interesting data:
        http://icecap.us/index.php/go/joes-blog/the_real_climate_drivers_ocean_and_solar_cycles_amplified_by_levels_of_volc/

      • R. Gates aka Skeptical Warmist

        David W.,

        See my reply above.

      • R. Gates aka Skeptical Warmist

        Gary,

        Your inability to supply actual data that shows the Earth system has not been accumulating energy over the past 30 or 40 years is disappointing, but not surprising.

      • Matthew R Marler

        R Gates aka Skeptical Warmist Give me data to refute the thousands of pages of research I’ve read.

        Surely you don’t believe everything you have read. Start with: at the highest concentrations of CO2 in the atmosphere ever recorded, the earth mean temperature is hardly increasing at all. The earth is warming much less than the models predicted, models that also were based on thousands of pages of research. If the models are accurate embodiments of the claimed knowledge, then the claimed knowledge is unbelievable right now.

      • “Your inability to supply actual data that shows the Earth system has not been accumulating energy over the past 30 or 40 years is disappointing, but not surprising.”

        Not disappointing at all. Only one of us is claiming to have data regarding the amount of energy allegedly accumulated over the last 30 or 40 years. I say there is no such actual data, because other warmists admit that is the case.

        Your inability to offer such data just proves that i was correct in saying you had stated a false premise. And I am not disappointed in your inability to do so at all either. I already knew you couldn’t.

      • You should also not be disappointed that i do not point to a model that shows CAGW is political polemic, not science. I do not cite to such a model, or propose such a model, because I do not believe the climate can be modeled at all. Certainly not at our present minimal state of knowledge, and perhaps not ever. Not to the extent claimed by Chicken Littles like yourself.

      • R. Gates aka Skeptical Warmist

        Gary M. said:

        “I say there is no such actual data, because other warmists admit that is the case.”


        You do realize how illogical this is, don’t you?

        The very best data we have that includes the largest portions of the Earth system we are currently measuring strongly indicates the continual accumulation of energy in the Earth system over the past 30 or 40 years. No credible “warmists” are dating this data does not exist. It’s been recorded by satellites and direct measurements of the ocean and cryosphere and biosphere and atmosphere.

        You are simply spouting off Gary. Do you want to learn science and honest skepticism?

      • R. Gates,

        You keep trying to change the subject. Now you want to claim that data regarding surface air temps and sea surface temps are the basis for your claim that the Earth’s climate is retaining energy in lock step with CO2 emissions. (I’ll leave aside for now the myriad problems with those adjusted, kriged, “data” records.)

        Which would call into question why everyone from Trenberth to Schmidt to the Met Office is discussing why the temp records do not comport with the models. How can there be “missing heat” if we have accurate data? Why are so many climate scientists getting nervous about climate sensitivity, if we have all this data you purport to be basing your question on?

        You want to claim isolated measurements of temps of parts of the global climate as a measurement of the total heat content of the climate system. That is not science. That is voodoo. That’s like taking the temperature of my living room for the last year, and trying to tell me how much heat my house has been retaining for the last 30-40 years, without even sticking a thermometer in the basement or attic.

        You can’t measure the difference between the actual amount of energy into the system and the actual energy out, because the difference is too small to be measured by any instrumentation now available. (I know this because that unquestionably objective scientific site Skeptical Science tells me so.) So you have no “data” regarding “retained heat,” only assumptions.

        Get back to me when your “science” has advanced to the level where you can even gather such data.

      • R. Gates aka Skeptical Warmist

        Matthew,

        Models are always wrong. Why would I base what I believe to be true on them? Makes no sense. Models may point towards discovery of something more than we know now, but they are never “true” in and of themselves.

      • “The very best data we have that includes the largest portions of the Earth system we are currently measuring….”

        “The largest portions of the Earth system we are currently measuring?”

        This belongs on the obscurantist thread.

        We aren’t measuring the largest portion of the Earth system by heat content, which is the issue. We are measuring the largest portion by area, which is irrelevant.

        Climate “science” at its “best.”

      • R. Gates aka Skeptical Warmist

        Gary,

        I never mentioned models in my original post, nor do my Warmist leanings depend on the models. I don’t care what Trenberth or anyone is doing to match reality with their models. Basic fundamental physics drives the climate. It is complex system built from basics. Increase GH gases and basic physics says more energy will be retained by the system, and that’s what the Earth system, taken in total, has been doing. If Trenberth or others say the energy should be in one part of the system or another based on their (not my) models, but it’s not there, maybe they should tweak their models. For just one example, which climate models accounts for the accumulating energy in the greening biosphere?

      • R. Gates aka Skeptical Warmist

        Gary said:

        “We are measuring the largest portion by area, which is irrelevant.”

        What are you referring to?

      • R. Gates,

        What are you referring to? I tried to read your comment to make sense, and the only way it does is if you are referring to the atmosphere, which is larger by area than the oceans, but has much less heat content and capacity to hold heat.

      • I would point out here that Trenberth is a data person not a model person. He holds models accountable to the data, and is just as critical as anyone when the models can’t follow the data. The idea that all the major AGW scientists are modelers is wrong.

      • Matthew R Marler

        R. Gates aka Skeptical Warmist: Why would I base what I believe to be true on [models]?

        I don’t know why. That is a question about you.

        The CO2 whose accumulation is accumulating mostly in the troposphere is the mechanism by which you propose the whole rest of the earth is accumulating energy. It is curious that the mechanism can warm up the whole rest of the earth without warming up its surroundings. That idea must be based on a mechanism that excludes kinetic energy transfer via collisions.

        One place the earth system is accumulating energy is in plant matter: sugar, cellulose, and all the other high energy chemicals that plants create. The rate of this storage has been increased by atmospheric CO2 accumulation in the regions where lack of CO2 has been the rate-limiting factor.

      • Matthew Marler, the GHG mechanism is that the infra-red heat loss from the earth is decreased by adding GHGs. This is why heat accumulates in the system, at least until the earth surface warms enough to restore the balance at the top.

      • Matthew R Marler

        Jim D, my response to you got posted below.

  7. Paul Vaughan

    “The jet stream, which strongly influences weather at mid-latitudes, is driven by temperature differences between the Arctic and the equator, a difference that shrinks with the sea ice.”

    Summer cyclone chewing up Canada’s Arctic sea ice
    http://www.ctvnews.ca/sci-tech/summer-cyclone-chewing-up-canada-s-arctic-sea-ice-1.1383454#ixzz2a7rqCHnY

  8. R. Gates aka Skeptical Warmist

    Some of the “missing heat” definitely found in the biosphere.

    As the Earth system continues to accumulate energy, the search has been on to find where all of this energy is being stored. The Ocean of course, as the major heat sink of the planet is one place, and we know some has been melting the cryosphere, but some amount has also been found in the expanding biosphere:

    http://www.rationaloptimist.com/blog/the-greening-of-the-planet.aspx

    This might or might not be reason to take some of the “C” out of those of you who might be CAGW’s, but it is at least is worth noting.

    • Greening is a positive feedback. It darkens the albedo as vegetation spreads into the deserts and Arctic tundra. However, this is a very slow process. Paleoclimate sensitivity appears higher than 3 C per doubling partially because of high-latitude forests in the warmer periods.

      • R. Gates aka Skeptical Warmist

        You are definitely correct on the positive feedback and greening. As long as there remains the constant external forcing of the Human Carbon Volcano, the more energy accumulated in the system, the more that will be accumulated. Hence, it seems very likely we are headed to new Pliocene-like conditions.

      • Oh do give it a break!
        Tell me, which gets hotter on a hot summer afternoon?
        The beach?
        Or the green lawn next to the beach?

      • R. Gates aka Skeptical Warmist

        Phatboy,

        You probably should be asking which absorbs more Long Term energy– the sandy beach or the green lawn? Truly of course it is the lawn, and in fact, you drive your gasoline car because of Long Term solar energy stored millions of years ago by a “green lawn” somewhere. You sure don’t drive it from energy that fell on a beach next to that lawn.

      • Gatesy,

        So that makes the lawn a positive feedback, does it?
        Think a bit before you write.

      • phatboy, the temperature you feel of a surface is more related to its conductivity than how much energy it has absorbed. You need to understand albedo more.

      • Jim D, so what absorbs the energy?
        The lawn?
        Or the earth underneath?
        And what proportion of the energy is converted into heat, and what proportion is almost immediately lost from the lawn through evaporation?

      • R. Gates aka Skeptical Warmist

        Phatboy,

        You could learn if you’d open your mind. Far more long-term energy is retained by green living things than the empty sand. And it is green living things and animals that have shaped the climate for millions of years.

        Also, regarding positive feedback and the greening of the Arctic, see:

        http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/science/2013/03/the-greening-of-the-arctic-is-underway/

      • phatboy, you might know that dark surfaces reflect less, therefore absorb more, sunlight. However a combination of its heat capacity and conductivity make it harder to warm, even with more energy coming in than sand. The water is darker and colder than the sand too, for similar reasons. It actually absorbs more heat, however.

      • Gatesy, do not patronise me.
        The energy absorbed by vegetation is locked away – it does not contribute to surface warming.

      • OK, this is just getting silly.

        First, grass is not cooler than sand on a sunny day because it is storing heat rather than re-emitting it. Ever heard of evaporation? Walk on dried out grass on a sand dune, you won’t find much comfort.

        And grass storing heat “long term?” If by long term you mean the life span of a blade of grass, I guess.

        I take it someone has decided that “biomass” is the new pipeline in which the missing heat is being stored pending Thermageddon?

      • Jim D, it absorbs more energy – which however does not lead to a commensurate increase in surface temperature – and so in turn not contributing to more atmospheric warming nor an increase in Planck response.

      • R. Gates aka Skeptical Warmist

        The energy stored in and cycled through the biosphere is a huge part of Earth’s climate system. This this so basic that I find it sad to see it even questioned here. Energy stored in the biosphere can be locked up for minutes or millions of years.

      • R.Gates, the Gullible Warmist,

        And where precisely did you find the measurements of the change in heat content of Earth’s biomass over the last 30-40 years, within tenths of a degree of course, to support your claim of a lock step rise in climate heat content with CO2 emissions?

      • Gatesy, only in your fevered imagination is anyone questioning that.

      • phatboy, I can tell that you are not an engineer or scientist as you don’t understand the concepts of heat storage or energy conservation. I don’t hold it against you. I am sure a lot of the skeptics are artists and politicians, etc. Do you suppose the sand or the grass get colder at night, or how about the water? This is storage, and some gets released later, some goes into deeper layers. Overall more energy in is more energy out for any surface, but time scales may vary. Some surfaces are more like storage heaters.

      • Jim D, why don’t we just cut down the rainforests then and turn them into deserts?
        Answer me one question: which warms the atmosphere more on average over a 24-hour period – the lawn or the sand? And which radiates the most energy on average, given the fourth-power relationship?

      • I guess for completeness, I should mention evaporation would also keep the grass surface cooler than the sand, but that is just heat loss by a different route.

      • The main benefit of rainforests is that they remove CO2 and add O2. Their albedo does not help for sure, but on balance they are better than sand. Allowing evaporation also keeps the land surface cooler than it might be otherwise, so the way forests retain moisture over longer periods than sand is a good thing too.

      • Jim D, I’ve already mentioned the evaporation in this thread.
        And the bit about the rainforests was meant as sarcasm, in case you missed it.
        I’m still battling to see where your positive feedback bit fits in.

      • Rainforest do not have significant net effect on the amount of CO2 or O2. They don not reduce CO2 or add O2 except when their total biomass increases or when the succeed in adding carbon to soil. Under normal conditions rain forest don’t do either, and are therefore approximately carbon neutral (and O2 neutral).

        Clearing of rain forests has an obvious effect and reforesting a previously cleared area the opposite one.

      • Pekka, you are right. I was referring to the effect of removing rainforests which likely would add a CO2 source due to decay or burning, the way the addition of forests sequesters carbon into the new biomass and soil. True, forests by themselves are neutral to carbon.

      • Part of the CO2 released from human activities is taken by growth of biomass. That’s a significant factor in slowing down the increase of CO2 in the atmosphere. In that the biomass transfers also some energy to chemical energy, but this is not a particularly important effect. It’s a fraction of the energy released when fossil fuels are burned, essentially the same fraction as the removal of CO2 by biomass growth is from the anthropogenic releases.

        The average power of biomass formation is of the order of 0.002 % of solar radiation at TOA.

      • phatboy, the positive feedback from greening is from lower albedo. Lower albedo means more sunlight is absorbed and less reflected to space. The albedo is part of what determines the 255 K mean radiative temperature of the earth to space. Its long-term average is a control knob for climate temperatures. Decreasing the albedo from 0.3 to 0.29 raises this temperature to 256 K which would warm the atmosphere.

      • The main reason for the relative coolness of a lawn must, indeed, be in evaporation. Evaporation removes heat from the point of evaporation but does not remove it from the Earth system as the heat is released somewhere again when the additional water vapor condenses,

        Another question is how long greening can go on in the changing climate. We could say that everything is fine as long as it does go on and have it’s positive feedback effect.

      • R. Gates the Skeptical Warmist

        The location of the “greening of the earth”, or plant material is of course very important in terms of its net effect on the local climate. There is of course the well known “oasis effect”:

        http://glossary.ametsoc.org/wiki/Oasis_effect

        But this doesn’t really address the general effect of a greener earth on the alteration of albedo, especially in more nothernly Arctic areas, where more planet materials (and plants that can begin to grow out of the snow cover earlier in spring) actually help to alter the general albedo and thus act as a positive feedback. For some very interesting research related to this, see:

        http://www.livescience.com/28406-arctic-tundra-turning-green.html

        But temperature is not the key issue, as the more important one is related to the storage of energy in greater amounts of biomass. This energy is energy that is “locked up” otherwise not immediately available for the other “spheres” on Earth, namely the troposphere, hydrosphere, cyrosphere, or lithosphere. When we burn fossil fuels we of course release what was once biomass energy millions of years ago.

      • Jim D, let Pekka explain it to you – he’s got more patience

      • phatboy, so far no one has disputed that greening lowers the albedo which is a positive feedback, just the way removing summer sea-ice is a positive feedback. I don’t see where the argument is. Might be interesting to see how much carbon can be sequestered by greening due to the new Arctic forests, because that would be a negative feedback.

      • Jim D, the lowering of albedo can only be be a positive feedback by increasing the surface temperature, leading to more atmospheric warming on average.

      • We shall see what effect Arctic forests have if and when they appear

      • R. Gates the Skeptical Warmist

        phatboy said:

        “Gatesy, do not patronise me.
        The energy absorbed by vegetation is locked away – it does not contribute to surface warming.”

        _____
        With that comment phatboy, seems you might need a bit of patronizing. In nothernly regions where vegetation alters the local albedo, of course it contributes to surface warming. More net energy is captured by the Earth system when it is absorbed rather than reflected away. Remember, the biosphere is a part of Earth’s energy system.

      • Gatesy, within the context in which I replied, it referred to the proportion of energy which YOU hypothesised was stored in the biosphere – which, as Pekka explained, amounts to a tiny percentage of the insolation. And that tiny proportion which is stored cannot be described as a positive feedback to warming.

        And with that, I must bid you goodnight

      • phatboy, you make the earth darker, it gets warmer because its heat comes from the sun. There are no two ways about it. The ice ages showed this in reverse.

      • R gates

        Not sure what your point is on greening. The effect has been known for centuries. Reports in the 1920’s arctic confirmed greening in the far north compared to thirty years earlier.

        In the archives of the Scott polar institute in Cambridge are records of greening in the far north of Russia and the subsequent establishment of trading towns. This was in conjunction with attempts to find a northern sea route to china.

        3000 years ago there were towns in the far north of Alaska

        Tonyb
        Tonyb

      • tonyb, a lot of “skeptics” are clinging to greening as a good effect of CO2, but now you are ruining it for them by saying it happened before CO2. Own goal.

      • R. Gates the Skeptical Warmist

        Tony,

        What caused “greening” of the Arctic before and what is causing it now, might not be the same thing. Undoubtedly the Arctic was ice free during the Pliocene (the last time CO2 was at or near 400 ppm), and we also know from the Lake E data that there were trees in the Arctic then. The goal would be to find out why the Arctic greened anytime in the past, and see if it can teach us something about why it is greening now and what the longer-term effects might be.

      • Jim D, Only if all else – absorptivity, moisture content, thermal capacity etc remain the same – which they seldom if ever do. Otherwise it does not necessarily hold true.
        And, as you originally said, it’s a very slow process – it hasn’t yet started happening to any significant extent.

      • PhattieBoy,
        The green lawn will turn brown with more heat and less moisture and then will eventually have a similar albedo to the beach. Do you not comprehend long term effects?

        Deniers have serious mental disconnects when it comes to conservation of energy arguments. The accumulated embedded energy of a greening lawn is a type of latent heat storage, until it starts decomposing, at which time it will release its latent heat.

      • Jimd

        I can only report on facts as they present themselves. The periods I cited , around 1920, around 1525 and 3000 years ago are all well known periods of warmth. With warmth comes greening. It’s hardly an own goal to report on periods as warm as or warmer than today.
        Tonyb

      • phatboy, no, albedo is a first-order effect on climate. It doesn’t depend on anything else to happen to change the forcing. It is like changing the solar strength. It matters in paleoclimate, but has not been invoked as a positive feedback for this century (yet) as far as I know. Some models have what is called dynamic vegetation that may include this effect, but equally the Amazon may die off. We don’t know the net greening.

      • Webfootinmouth, if I wanted your amazing level of insight into how grass dries I would have asked for it.

      • tonyb, so that leaves the question of whether the greening is from warmth or CO2 or both. It doesn’t seem to resolve anything. Do you know if CO2 was higher back then?

      • Jim D, I’m well aware of what albedo is – you appear to be misunderstanding what I’m saying.

      • phatboy, OK, good, now you can go back to my first statement on this sub-thread and see why you disagreed, because that is all I was saying.

      • Look, I’ve lost my patience with you – good night.

      • This is kind of ironic. With the models failing and the temperature pausing, suddenly the greening of the globe is an AGW minion topic. Never mind that 10% of the total surface of the Earth is currently “agricultural” land and close to 2% above latitude 45N has been put to the plow since the start of the industrial/agricultural revolution which the IPCC lists as a net cooling impact in spite of the albedo change, dust bowls, Sahel and Aralkum.

        It is like the minions are on the verge of an epiphany but they just can’t get the bulb lit.

      • A warmer world sustains more total life and more diversity of life. A higher atmospheric CO2 concentration directly benefits the plant kingdom, land and sea, and derivatively, the animal kingdom, land and sea.
        =============================================

      • PhattieBoy loses it and relies on Kim to rationalize why the warming that climate scientists predicted fits the deniers requirements for a world they wanted all along.

        How convenient.

  9. Here’s a skeptical analysis of what might be the latest scam, or could be something that, if its proponents’ claims hold up, could grow the economy while curtailing CO2E as if by magic.

    http://www.theecologist.org/blogs_and_comments/commentators/other_comments/2016620/biochar_a_cause_for_concern.html

    I should note, there’s a world of difference between making charcoal and making ‘charged’ (composted) biochar, and the two have very different effects.

    It is poorly studied as yet, but baby steps: http://www.hindawi.com/isrn/spectroscopy/2012/712837/

  10. Schrodinger's Cat

    It is clear that climate scientists do not know if warming has stopped for a considerable time, or whether it has just paused, perhaps for a few months or even a few years.

    The models are running too hot and the lack of warming for such a prolonged period was not expected.

    The reasons for the lack of warming are not understood, but I assume them to be natural effects and it is entirely possible that some of the warming observed at the end of last century was due to natural factors as well. Natural factors seem to be more powerful than we were led to believe in the recent past.

    The idea that the heat has chosen to change tactics and instead of raising the surface temperature it is now passing in some undetected manner into the depths of the ocean is at present no more than a suggestion.

    If the above is a reasonable summary of the state of knowledge of AGW, then what should our scientists be telling our governments?

    Should governments be reassured that warming will return with a vengeance and any delay in decarbonising everything will ensure disaster?

    Given that the public is increasingly sceptical about AGW should the scientists admit that their models are flawed and it is time to reassess the science?

    If the scientists bluff through this period hoping for imminent dramatic warming, do they not run the risk of further digging the hole that they are now in? If the government is persuaded to continue with expensive and useless energy policies and the planet then cools down, what then?

    What does the responsible scientist do in this situation? The UK Met Office is in such a position. The three papers they published recently (which were widely regarded as spin) may give some indication of their thinking.

    • R. Gates aka Skeptical Warmist

      Your premise seems to be that GH gas forcing has taken a “pause”. Tropospheric temperatures are very poor indicators over the short-term of long term climate forcings. The Met office is a joke.

      • “The Met office is a joke.’

        I wonder if you ever made this comment before the Met Office began backtracking (ever so slightly) from the alarmism you so ardently support? Got any previous comments from say a year or more ago, when they were still toeing the Warmist party line?

        True believing progressive acolytes always believe that independent thought is a joke. That way they don’t have to think about it themselves.

  11. Gentlemen and Ladies: My posting did not ask you to predict what the next ten years would look like. My posting postulated four possible empirical outcomes and asked you how you would interpret each of these, (I suppose particularly in terms of the adequacy of climate models). In other words, given ten more years of data, can we likely know a lot more than we do now? And what would we know? I, being of a mind that climate models are not very good, would rather hang my hat on empirical data. But how much data do we need?

    • Perhaps Spencer’s satellite won’t still be up in ten years, or he could be retired along with his methods, so it could be moot. Better to use a continuing record like surface measurements.

  12. R. Gates, the Dogmatic Warmist, is making two mutually exclusive arguments on this site today. And I think his arguments are representative of the larger debate. (Which is not surprising, cognitive dissonance is the sine qua non of progressive thought.)

    Argument 1: The 15 +/- year “pause” in global surface air and sea surface temps are no argument against CAGW because the total global heat content of the Earth’s climate system has been rising in lock step with anthro CO2 emissions for the past 30-40 years.

    Argument 2: We know the heat content of the Earth’s climate system has been rising for the last 30-40 years, from the data we have from measuring the global surface air and sea surface temps.

    Contradiction: (Do I really have to type it?) How can the data show a constant increase over a 30-40 year period, where the data show virtually no increase over the last 15?

    • R. Gates aka Skeptical Warmist

      Gary,

      You seem to read far more into what I say than is there. Over the past 10 years it is absolutely true that the troposphere has not been warming. But generally, it has not been greatly cooling globally either, but seems rather to have leveled. More importantly, in terms of Earth’s energy balance is that the oceans and cryosphere have more than made up for the lack of warming in the troposphere, and very recent data seems to indicate the biosphere has well. The Earth, as a complete energy system continued to gain energy strongly over the past decade. Please give me data this is not true.

      • “The Earth, as a complete energy system continued to gain energy strongly over the past decade. Please give me data this is not true.”

        You are back where you started. Asking for data to contradict your assumptions. Not going to happen. See above for why.

        But I must say, your new claim that the missing heat is hiding in the grass, gave me a smile.

      • R. Gates aka Skeptical Warmist

        Mine is not an assumption but based on years of data. What you got?

      • Matthew R Marler

        R Gates aka Skeptical Warmist: More importantly, in terms of Earth’s energy balance is that the oceans and cryosphere have more than made up for the lack of warming in the troposphere, and very recent data seems to indicate the biosphere has well.

        That is definitely something that you believe.

      • R. Gates the Skeptical Warmist

        Yes I do Matthew, but provisionally so and not blindly so. The best available data says it is happening, but I’d love some data that says it is not.

      • R. Gates the Skeptical Warmist

        Gary said:

        “But I must say, your new claim that the missing heat is hiding in the grass, gave me a smile.”
        ____
        Good you can smile Gary. Many folks who watch too much Faux News can’t.
        I also think its “cute” that you think that energy is “hiding” in the grass. Does this make it easier for you to understand basic science? That’s makes me smile.

      • What is the sound of heat hiding in the grass?
        =====================

      • For the sound of heat hiding under the grass, click on

      • Locusts are more like the bankers…

        http://ca.news.yahoo.com/cyprus-lenders-set-bank-cyprus-104408907.html

        who want to hold onto their science; for all of US.

      • Max-OK,

        No, that’s the sound of waiting for a straight answer to a simple question from a warmist.

      • R. Gates aka Skeptical Warmist

        Gary,

        We could have an intelligent conversation perhaps if you knew something about science. Turn off your beloved Faux News and begin your schooling here:

        https://judithcurry.com/2013/07/27/open-thread-weekend-26/#comment-354173

  13. In a recent poll of youth on climate, 80% of voters under age 35 said they support the President’s climate change agenda, and 73% say they are less likely to vote for someone who opposed these steps. Even 52% of young Republicans said they would be less likely to vote for someone who opposed the President’s plan.

    When asked how they would describe climate change deniers, most of those polled chose negative terms: 37% said “ignorant”, 29% said “out of touch,” and 7% said “crazy.”

    http://www.lcv.org/media/blog/lcv-releases-youth-poll-on.html

    I too would describe the deniers as ignorant and out of touch. I also would use the following words to describe deniers: stale, archaic, over-the-hill, fuddy-duddy.

    • When asked what President Obama’s climate change agenda was, 100% of respondents said “Huh?”

      • GaryM thinks so much like Virginia AG and gubernatorial candidate Ken Cuccinelli that I suspect he may be Ken’s evil twin. Or maybe it’s the other way around, with Ken being the evil one..

        I don’t know if GaryM, like Ken, is a prude and a homophobe, and favors reinstating Virginia’s Crimes Against Nature law, which would make it illegal (even for straight couples )to engage in you know what.

        http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michelangelo-signorile/ken-cuccinelli-oral-sex_b_3639244.html

      • Max_OK thinks so much like every other progressive drone it’s a surprise he can construct a sentence on his own. They’re not terribly coherent sentences mind you….

  14. John Vonderlin

    John Vonderlin
    I am curious of what others think is the statistical significance of the recent 129 degree temperature in Death Valley. Given that the all-time record there is five degrees hotter and that record just “celebrated” its centennial this July, I am particularly wondering about the statistical aspects of a worldwide extreme record being untouched, or even closely approached for so long?
    Secondarily, are there proxies for extremely high temperatures in the distant past, and if so, what do they tell us about the frequency of occurrences of previous extreme events?
    Thirdly, can someone provide a link to, or historical overview of the previous heat records around the world before the 1913 event? Wikipedia provides records by country, but not the history of previous records locally. I’d be interested in knowing if other extreme local records have been as long lasting as Death Valley’s?

  15. Chief Hydrologist

    The Pacific is in La Nina territory.

    http://www.weatherzone.com.au/climate/indicator_enso.jsp?c=nino34
    http://www.csiro.au/Portals/Media/Deserts-greening-from-rising-CO2.aspx

    It will intensify towards the Austral spring.

    The world seems to be greening. Has this increased photosynthesis at the same time as soil respiration has increased?

    http://www.csiro.au/Portals/Media/Deserts-greening-from-rising-CO2.aspx

    The latter is discussed here.

    https://judithcurry.com/2013/06/07/soil-carbon-permanent-pasture-as-an-approach-to-co2-sequestration/

    • R. Gates aka Skeptical Warmist

      La Niña? Hmm…maybe, but that would mean even more energy stored in the oceans and less released to the troposphere for this period.

      • R. Gates aka Skeptical Warmist

        Chief Hydro said:

        “You are quite wrong. Planetary energy (not just ocean) is lost in an El Nino and gained in La Nina – it is not simply a matter of redistribution of energy.”

        ——-
        Not sure how I could be wrong about a point I did not address. I made the point that the net flow of energy from ocean to atmosphere is greater during an El Niño than during a La Niña. Now, if you want to broaden this topic, to talk about what happens to that energy once it moves from ocean to atmosphere, I am happy to do that. We know that much of it will pass through the atmosphere and go out into space. If this is what you are referring to as the loss of “Planetary” energy, then you are correct.

      • Chief Hydrologist

        You are quite wrong to prattle on about the Earth gaining energy without understanding the reality of toa radiant flux.

    • Chief Hydrologist

      ‘CERES data show that clouds have a net radiative warming influence during La Niña conditions and a net cooling influence during El Niño, but the magnitude of the anomalies varies greatly from one ENSO event to another.’ http://meteora.ucsd.edu/~jnorris/reprints/Loeb_et_al_ISSI_Surv_Geophys_2012.pdf

      ‘The global climate system is composed of a number of subsystems – atmosphere, biosphere, cryosphere, hydrosphere and lithosphere – each
      of which has distinct characteristic times, from days and weeks to centuries and millennia. Each subsystem, moreover, has its own internal variability,
      all other things being constant, over a fairly broad range of time scales. These ranges overlap between one subsystem and another. The interactions between the subsystems thus give rise to climate variability on all time scales.’

      http://www.atmos.ucla.edu/tcd/PREPRINTS/Math_clim-Taipei-M_Ghil_vf.pdf

      It is a mistake to think in terms of one subsystem.

      • R. Gates the Skeptical Warmist

        I completely agree Chief Hydro. Best way to think about Earth’s energy system is by looking at the whole system.

      • Chief Hydrologist

        No – the only way to think about the global energy dynamic is with TOA radiant flux data. The system is far too complex with far too many unknowns otherwise.

      • R. Gates the Skeptical Warmist

        Oh c’mon now Chief. Your TOA flux can only measure the net in versus out, but says nothing about where that difference is going in terms of the system– and that’s the interesting part. More has been coming in than going out (anywhere from about 0.5 w/m^2 to 1 w/m^2 for quite some time, and how that extra is moving about the system is what we’d like to know. During El Ninos, a bigger bit of energy moves from ocean to atmosphere, and during La Ninas, the opposite is true. But on top of this, we’d like to know where the extra long-term energy is accumulating. Seems some is in the oceans, the cryosphere, and the the biosphere. Got any other ideas?

      • Chief Hydrologist

        You are quite wrong. Planetary energy (not just ocean) is lost in an El Nino and gained in La Nina – it is not simply a matter of redistribution of energy.

        http://s1114.photobucket.com/user/Chief_Hydrologist/media/Loeb2011-Fig1.png.html?sort=3&o=52

        But on decadal scales – in ERBS the energy out was 0.7 W/m2 in IR, - 2.1 W/m2 in SW , and 1.4 W m2 W/m2 net. So cooling in IR, warming in SW.

        http://www.image.ucar.edu/idag/Papers/Wong_ERBEreanalysis.pdf

        In CERES we have a similar story.

        http://s1114.photobucket.com/user/Chief_Hydrologist/media/CERES-BAMS-2008-with-trend-lines1.gif.html?sort=3&o=116

        It tells us not merely that there is extra energy in the system – but the source of the variability in changing cloud radiative forcing mostly. .

        http://s1114.photobucket.com/user/Chief_Hydrologist/media/cloud_palleandlaken2013_zps3c92a9fc.png.html?sort=3&o=14

        ‘The top-of-atmosphere (TOA) Earth radiation budget (ERB) is determined from the difference between how much energy is absorbed and emitted by the planet. Climate forcing results in an imbalance in the TOA radiation budget that has direct implications for global climate, but the large natural variability in the Earth’s radiation budget due to fluctuations in atmospheric and ocean dynamics complicates this picture.’

        http://meteora.ucsd.edu/~jnorris/reprints/Loeb_et_al_ISSI_Surv_Geophys_2012.pdf

        This seems quite simple – there is a ‘large natural variability in the Earth’s radiation budget due to fluctuations in atmospheric and ocean dynamics’.

        Prattling on about the Earth gaining energy at whatever your latest figure is – is an utter nonsense. The reality – and variability – is vastly different.

    • Matthew R Marler

      Chief Hydrolgist, the ENSO indices posted here are very close to neutral.

    • Chief Hydrologist

      H Matthew

      It is at early stages but can’t help to evolve as the feedbacks kick in – http://www.weatherzone.com.au/climate/indicator_enso.jsp?c=soi&p=weekly

  16. Chief Hydrologist

    The change in top of atmosphere radiant change naturally a lot more than any mooted change in greenhouse gas forcing. Thus it is an error to think that the satellite records show AGW – and an error as well to think that internal variability doesn’t change the total energy budget of the Earth.

    ‘The top-of-atmosphere (TOA) Earth radiation budget (ERB) is determined from the difference between how much energy is absorbed and emitted by the planet. Climate forcing results in an imbalance in the TOA radiation budget that has direct implications for global climate, but the large natural variability in the Earth’s radiation budget due to fluctuations in atmospheric and ocean dynamics complicates this picture.

    http://meteora.ucsd.edu/~jnorris/reprints/Loeb_et_al_ISSI_Surv_Geophys_2012.pdf

    The relevant satellite records show that cloud radiative forcing is the significant variable in the satellite era. Now we may quibble about the data – but we should start from a realistic interpretation.

    http://s1114.photobucket.com/user/Chief_Hydrologist/media/cloud_palleandlaken2013_zps3c92a9fc.png.html?sort=3&o=14

    http://www.benlaken.com/documents/AIP_PL_13.pdf

  17. Schrodinger's Cat

    R Gates:
    I said that warming has stopped.

    We do not know yet whether it is a stoppage or a pause. As you know, the climate is always changing, so at some stage it will start cooling or warming. No doubt we can argue then whether the current non-warming was a stoppage or a pause.

    I did not mention GH gas forcing. You did.

    I was trying to discuss the relationship between measured parameters and recommendations to policymakers. What is your point?

    • R. Gates the Skeptical Warmist

      Schrodinger’s Cat:

      Just suggesting you be specfic when making the comment the “warming has stopped” in regard to what part of the Earth system you are referring to over what specfic time frame. Seems some “skeptics” think that policy should be adopted or not adopted based on a short-term period and the lowest thermal interia part of the system. If the oceans were cooling as rapidly as they are gaining energy we could say the ‘warming has stopped”, but they aren’t and so we should be precise.

  18. Chief Hydrologist

    Natural, large-scale climate patterns like the PDO and El Niño-La Niña are superimposed on global warming caused by increasing concentrations of greenhouse gases and landscape changes like deforestation. According to Josh Willis, JPL oceanographer and climate scientist, “These natural climate phenomena can sometimes hide global warming caused by human activities. Or they can have the opposite effect of accentuating it.

    http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=8703

    The 20 to 40 year regimes are apparent in proxy records going back 1000 years. We are in a cool planetary mode and this seems likely to last another 10 to 30 years. Tropospheric temperatures seem very likely (99-100%) to be stable at least for the next decade as La Niña intensifies and solar intensity declines in the 11 year cycle.

    • R. Gates the Skeptical Warmist

      Chief Hydro said:

      “We are in a cool planetary mode…”
      ___
      Nope, we are in flattening troposphere temperature mode when less net energy is moving from oceans to atmosphere. But that doesn’t sound too exciting to prattle on about, does it?

    • Chief Hydrologist

      You are increasingly insulting and idiotic gatesy.

      The troposphere seem very likely not to warm for a decade to three at least with significant political implications. That’s the significant point. It is really quite a telling point as well. The rate of recent anthropogenic warming is nowhere near as great as the total.

      The total system seems quite likely to lose energy as well as the cool planetary mode intensifies.

      • R. Gates aka Skeptical Warmist

        Chief said:

        “The total system seems quite likely to lose energy as well as the cool planetary mode intensifies.”

        —–
        From the smell of it, I know exactly where you pulled this little gem from.

      • Gates sniffs at the gem instead of gazing into its cool, limpid, and lucid depths, hinting of millenial scale changes during the Holocene.
        ==========================

      • Chief Hydrologist

        You’re snide bs notwithstanding you mean?

  19. Chief Hydrologist

    In summary, although there is independent evidence for decadal changes in TOA radiative fluxes over the last two decades, the evidence is equivocal. Changes in the planetary and tropical TOA radiative fluxes are consistent with independent global ocean heat-storage data, and are expected to be dominated by changes in cloud radiative forcing. To the extent that they are real, they may simply reflect natural low-frequency variability of the climate system. http://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/ar4/wg1/en/ch3s3-4-4-1.html

    If ‘real’ it suggests a very much diminished role for greenhouse gases in recent climate variability.

  20. Schrodinger's Cat

    My question above about how climate scientists should react to uncertainty still stands.

    My own view of climate change is worthless, but maybe standards are falling, so it may be as good as the view of the Met Office.

    I believe that warming is probably following the relationship with atmospheric CO2 concentration and is showing a decreasing sensitivity as saturation is reached.

    I have serious doubts about positive water vapour GHG feedback and believe that water vapour is more associated with various negative feedbacks.

    I believe that TSI effects are underestimated, especially the effect of high energy UV variability on atmospheric chemistry.

    My belief is that AGW is real, significant, but not important, and possibly beneficial.

    In my view, the attempts to demonize CO2 are just crazy. It is an essential gas and without it we would not exist.

    • Regarding water vapor feedback, you have to think of there being an effectively infinite reservoir for water vapor (the ocean), and the only thing keeping the atmospheric concentration in check is the atmospheric temperature profile which forces the water vapor to condense. Raising that temperature is like raising the lid that keeps it in check, and it will quickly fill up to the new equilibrium that follows the saturation change (7% more H2O per degree C).

    • R. Gates the Skeptical Warmist

      If the changes in the ocean and cryosphere we’re so extreme I’d agree with your guess as a reasonable guess. But as long as we continue to see such extreme changes in ocean and cryosphere (better long-term indicators of a gradual long-term forcing from GH gas increases) then we know the Earth system continues to feel the full effects of AGW– sometimes it is more apparent in the troposphere, and sometimes it is not.

      • Indeed, I was referring to the equilibrium case. What we have now is a decreasing RH because the land has been warming faster in the transient climate of the last 30 years, which is also throwing off those sensitivity studies that end up with low values.

  21. Matthew R Marler

    Jim D Matthew Marler, the GHG mechanism is that the infra-red heat loss from the earth is decreased by adding GHGs. This is why heat accumulates in the system, at least until the earth surface warms enough to restore the balance at the top.

    Yes. How can that be occurring without the troposphere warming, where the CO2 molecules mostly reside? With ever more CO2 molecules in that finite volume the mean free path between collisions gets ever smaller, which must warm the environs even more. The one possibility that I can see is that more and more energy is being stored in the water vapor (i.e. in the latent heat of vaporization) — yet somehow without increasing the rate of transfer by water from the surface to the upper troposphere.

    • There are two responses to the increased top-of-atmosphere forcing. 1. part of the surface does warm (the land and atmosphere above it) and increases outward IR there, and 2. the imbalance increases causing a net rate of energy gain in the earth system, mostly the ocean heat content, which is not a sustainable response because eventually a warming ocean heat content does lead to a warmer ocean surface.

    • Matthew,

      Convection guarantees that the temperature profile of the troposphere does not change much, and that the warming rate of the troposphere cannot exceed significantly that of the surface. Therefore your argument is totally moot.

      • Matthew R Marler

        Convection guarantees that the temperature profile of the troposphere does not change much, and that the warming rate of the troposphere cannot exceed significantly that of the surface.

        Can the temperature of the troposphere decline while the increased CO2 accumulation in the troposphere is causing an increased heat accumulation elsewhere in the system? How much of a difference is “significant”?

      • The temperature of the troposphere is governed by the surface temperature, so if a PDO phase causes the ocean surface to cool, the troposphere there can cool too. If you look where the cooling is occurring, this is what is happening now. The land surface warms meanwhile, especially the NH continents.

      • The heat capacity of the atmosphere is too small to influence much any persistent changes. It’s important for weather, but not for climate. From the point of view of climate the atmosphere is a thin layer of insulation and color on the surface. The heat capacity of a thin layer like that is irrelevant but the color and the level of insulation provided are important.

        By color I have in mind the clouds that affect albedo. The insulating effect is strengthened by additional CO2. Feedbacks manifest themselves both in the color (albedo) and in the level of insulation that the atmosphere provides.

      • Matthew R Marler

        Pekka Pirilä Convection guarantees that the temperature profile of the troposphere does not change much, and that the warming rate of the troposphere cannot exceed significantly that of the surface.

        I thought I would try this again. The graph that I linked to shows that the temperature of the troposphere fluctuates, though the trend over the last 17 years is flat or slightly down. So when you say that “Convection guarantees that the temperature profile of the troposphere does not change much”, what do you mean by much? Was the temperature change of the troposphere during the preceding 17 years irrelevant?

        What is the mechanism by which the increased absorption of radiant energy by the increased concentration of CO2 in the troposphere conveys extra energy to the rest of the climate system without increasing the energy and temperature of the surrounding air? When CO2 molecules absorb radiation they mostly transfer the energy to the ambient N2 and O2 via collision before emitting radiant energy: so how can the increase in the concentration/number of CO2 molecules cause an energy accumulation somewhere else other than their vicinity? The fact that the troposphere has small mass compared to the mass of the deep ocean hardly supports the idea that increasing CO2 can warm the ocean without warming the troposphere, does it?

      • Matthew Marler, this is where the blanket analogy works. Adding CO2 reduces infra-red heat loss, so it is the surface cooling rates that are suppressed and this leads to net surface warming over time. The atmosphere/blanket itself doesn’t have to be warmed to be effective at restricting heat loss.

      • The tight relationship between the surface temperature and the temperature of the troposphere at some altitude holds only for the average values over long enough periods as the local weather related fluctuations are large.

        As I already wrote, the reason for this relationship is in convection. Convection transfers the more energy from the surface to the troposphere the larger the temperature difference is. If the troposphere warms due to some other reason, we have less convection and that brings the relationship back to its normal value. Convection reacts strongly to rather small deviations from the normal value and by that maintains a stable relationship.

        The lapse rate, i.e. the rate by which temperature drops with increasing altitude is rather stable and close to the value 6.5 C/km when averages over time are considered. There are deviations from that most notably at high latitudes, but those don’t change the overall picture.

      • Matthew R Marler

        Jim D: this is where the blanket analogy works.

        I think that is another place where the blanket analogy fails.

      • Matthew R Marler

        Pekka Pirilä As I already wrote, the reason for this relationship is in convection. Convection transfers the more energy from the surface to the troposphere the larger the temperature difference is. If the troposphere warms due to some other reason, we have less convection and that brings the relationship back to its normal value. Convection reacts strongly to rather small deviations from the normal value and by that maintains a stable relationship.

        You did already write that, and I did not disagree with the concept of convection which I have written of myself. What do you mean by a “stable relationship” when the data show that the troposphere temperature fluctuates?

        The mechanism insisted upon by the skeptical warmer — increased absorption of long wave radiation by increased concentrations of CO2 in the troposphere — can not warm other parts of the climate system without warming the adjacent troposphere first.

      • Matthew Marler, your conceptual model fails when you expect the atmosphere to warm before the surface. It doesn’t. The surface warms first and convection does the rest, warming the atmosphere.

      • Matthew,

        I’m surprised that you still miss the logic. You write:

        The mechanism insisted upon by the skeptical warmer — increased absorption of long wave radiation by increased concentrations of CO2 in the troposphere — can not warm other parts of the climate system without warming the adjacent troposphere first.

        The surface is not warmed by the atmosphere but by the solar radiation; it’s cooled by the atmosphere. At no point do we need any mechanism by which the atmosphere warms the surface (backradiation is also just a reduction in the cooling by IR, not warming). An atmosphere with more CO2 is less efficient in cooling the atmosphere due to less efficient radiative heat transfer. Throughout the troposphere changes in convection compensate for the changes in radiative heat transfer maintaining an almost constant average lapse rate. At the top of the troposphere convection cannot provide a full compensation leading to the outcome that the whole troposphere warms with more CO2.

        Looking more carefully all kind of feedbacks kick in. The lapse rate is not strictly unchanged (although it may actually change less than models predict meaning that the negative lapse rate feedback is significantly weaker. This is the controversy on the tropospheric hot spot). Other feedbacks include the positive water vapor feedback and cloud feedbacks which include both positive and negative contributions.

      • Matthew R Marler

        Pekka Pirilä Throughout the troposphere changes in convection compensate for the changes in radiative heat transfer maintaining an almost constant average lapse rate.

        The data showed that over the past 17 years the troposphere was not in fact a constant temperature; nor had it been in the preceding 17 years.

        I did not mean to imply that downward radiation was necessary to warm the surface; indeed, I explicitly wrote that the absorbed radiant energy is quickly converted to kinetic energy in the surrounding air molecules. There is no known mechanism by which the increased accumulation of CO2 in the troposphere can lead to increased absorption of radiation in the troposphere and an increase in the water vapor energy or any other part of the climate system without the troposphere warming first. You and I independently wrote that it is possible that the energy accumulation of which the skeptical warmist wrote resides in the increased energy of the increased water vapor. The mystery, the “cavity” in the theory, is how that can happen without the troposphere warming. Increased vaporization of water can certainly slow the troposphere warming, but it can not prevent the troposphere from warming.

        Other authors have written that increased CO2 will increase the downwelling IR, by about 3.7 W/m^2; and that the increased downwelling will indeed warm the earth surface more than it is now warmed, and increase water vapor over what it is now.

      • Matthew,

        I did not mean to imply that downward radiation was necessary to warm the surface; indeed, I explicitly wrote that the absorbed radiant energy is quickly converted to kinetic energy in the surrounding air molecules. There is no known mechanism by which the increased accumulation of CO2 in the troposphere can lead to increased absorption of radiation in the troposphere

        The mechanism of increased absorption is very well known and accurately measured in laboratory and also in the atmosphere. All this is known without any significant uncertainty.

        .. and an increase in the water vapor energy or any other part of the climate system without the troposphere warming first.

        The troposphere warms very little in comparison to the temperature that it would have without this additional warming, too little for being directly observable. It warms so little because the influence on convection is so strong. Reduced heat flow from below means that the surface warming proceeds at the same pace within our ability to measure more persistent temperature changes than those related to weather phenomena.

        You and I independently wrote that it is possible that the energy accumulation of which the skeptical warmist wrote resides in the increased energy of the increased water vapor.

        I didn’t write that. The additional latent energy of the troposphere is not any more important than the additional sensible heat energy of the troposphere. The whole heat capacity of the atmosphere including that related to latent heat is too small for being significant for changes in climate.

        The ocean and soil layers near the surface have a hugely larger heat capacity. Warming can proceed only at the rate determined by the ratio of heat flux to this heat capacity. That’s true both for the troposphere and the layers below surface.

        The mystery, the “cavity” in the theory, is how that can happen without the troposphere warming. Increased vaporization of water can certainly slow the troposphere warming, but it can not prevent the troposphere from warming.

        There’s no mystery or “cavity” in the theory. The vaporization does not have any significant effect either, all is controlled by the flux at TOA and the effective below surface heat capacity of the Earth.

        Other authors have written that increased CO2 will increase the downwelling IR, by about 3.7 W/m^2; and that the increased downwelling will indeed warm the earth surface more than it is now warmed, and increase water vapor over what it is now.

        This is not an issue of physics but an issue of semantics. People mean different things when they use the word “warm”. There are advantages in considering IR emission of the surface and downwelling radiation separately. One advantage is that the emission from the surface is easy to calculate with reasonable accuracy from the Stefan-Boltzmann law and estimated average emissivity. In that approach the
        surface IR emission is the largest of all components of the energy balance and downwelling IR the second largest.

        For the present discussion I preferred, however, the net effect of IR, which is much smaller, significantly less than the sum of convection and latent heat transfer near surface. Going to higher altitudes the share of net IR grows until reaches 100% at tropopause (that’s what determines the altitude of the tropopause).

  22. Few comments up the tread referring to:
    – earth is still accumulating missing energy –

    Monty Pythonesk dead parrot somewhere in there.

  23. Schrodinger's Cat

    When a science has lost the plot, gone off the rails, diverted from reality, it is maybe a good time to get back to simple basics and build it up from there.

    • R. Gates the Skeptical Warmist

      Agree. GH gases accumulation is all about alterations in Earth’s energy balance. Go back to talking about Energy in the Earth system and you’ll find your way back to simple basics.

    • Yes, a lot of skeptics didn’t start at the beginning, They started at the end and worked backwards. Better to build on the foundations and work forwards the way science did over the past century. Start with Arrhenius.

      • Matthew R Marler

        Jim D: Start with Arrhenius.

        Well sure, but don’t end with Arrhenius.

      • The skeptics first have to say whether or not they agree with Arrhenius’s basic idea, and if not why not.

      • JimD, “The skeptics first have to say whether or not they agree with Arrhenius’s basic idea, and if not why not.” A good number of skeptics would agree that Arrhenius’ first work grossly over estimated water vapor feedback and that his second estimate which agrees with Callendar’s 1938 estimate which agrees with current observations is the one to quote. Not his post publication peer criticized original.

      • captd, I don’t mean using Arrhenius’s numbers which were not accurate enough, but using today’s numbers with Arrhenius’s methods. First do that and see what you get. Basically it is the 3.7 W/m2 forcing for a CO2 doubling and the water vapor feedback for constant RH, remembering this is ECS, or dispute that as a method to get ECS and provide something better.

      • I have seen some mentions of Callendar, but have not seen anyone explain where he differed from Arrhenius yet. Does anyone understand it enough to explain it, or do I have to search this one down myself?

      • JimD

        You might find this of interest. It is an appraisal by Giles Slocum of the US weather service of Callendar’s 1938 paper. It was written in 1955 and to me the prose and clarity sets standards that many modern scientists could usefully emulate.
        http://docs.lib.noaa.gov/rescue/mwr/083/mwr-083-10-0225.pdf
        tonyb

      • Ooh, show that to Stevie Mac.
        =========

      • JimD, “I have seen some mentions of Callendar, but have not seen anyone explain where he differed from Arrhenius yet. Does anyone understand it enough to explain it, or do I have to search this one down myself?”

        It is not that difficult to understand. Arrhenius had tables by latitude of his estimated CO2 impact over land and water. He actually produced regional sensitivity estimates that could be used to verify his hypothesis.

        http://redneckphysics.blogspot.com/2012/02/arrhenius-is-still-dead-but-his-mistake.html

        Compare them yourself.

      • Tonyb, thanks. While interesting, it focuses on the attempts to detect CO2 changes before the Keeling work, and Callendar seems to have been at the forefront of this detection effort. I didn’t see any different ideas on the effects of CO2 here.

      • captd, yes, as I said Arrhenius did not have good global data. Today we have gridded reanalyses that are far superior, and his methods can be applied to that and are, to determine sensitivity effects.

      • JImD

        In his autobiography Keeling says that Callendar greatly influenced him and he used Callendar’s figures from this document when calculating his co2 expectations from Mauna Loa .

        The figure of 350 to 400ppm was widely accepted during much of the 19th and 20th century, although with greater variability than is thought possible today

        There were tens of thousands of observations by many hundreds of scientists, some internationally famous, carried out during that period using increasingly sophisticated apparatus.

        if they were ALL incorrect it demonstrates that knowledge always increases and we shouldn’t believe that the current crop of scientists have the definitive answers to climate change any more than they did in the past
        tonyb

      • JimD, “captd, yes, as I said Arrhenius did not have good global data. Today we have gridded reanalyses that are far superior, and his methods can be applied to that and are, to determine sensitivity effects.”

        Very evasion response, good job! That is exactly what I did. Sensitivity “globally” excluding any long term persistence is about 1.6C per doubling. That seems to be a pretty common theme lately. Considering long term persistence “sensitivity” is 0.8 C which marries rather well with the current estimate of ~335 Wm-2 of DWLR, ~335 Wm-2 of black body source energy (that would be the average ocean energy Jim).

        Like Arrhenius’s work, there is a lot of post publication peer criticism of some of your other favorite references. Science is marching along nicely JimD.

      • Kim

        You are just trying to cause trouble. :) It is a non subject as far as Steve is concerned.

        However it doesn’t get away from the point I made to Jim that thousands of reputable scientists over a period of 140 years created tens of thousands of measurements that these days are considered wildly incorrect. Therefore we shouldn’t believe that todays science isn’t going to be considered outdated and incorrect n due course

        (incidentally Callendar became very dubious of his own theory during the hard winter of 1962/3)
        tonyb

      • Matthew R Marler

        Jim D: The skeptics first have to say whether or not they agree with Arrhenius’s basic idea, and if not why not.

        I speak only for myself, but I agree that CO2 absorbs radiation in the wavelengths radiated by the earth.

        Getting from there to a future of warming from a future of increased CO2 is full of cavities, holes, inconsistencies, known unknowns, etc. Quantifying, reliably, the effect of doubling CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere, over any time span, is next to impossible given present knowledge.

      • “Yes, a lot of skeptics didn’t start at the beginning, They started at the end and worked backwards.”

        Most skeptics only started paying attention to “climate science” when the “consensus” informed us – “Oh, by the way, we’re going to decarbonize the global economy…starting now.”

        And every consensus scientist I have read started at the end too, acceptance of CAGW, and worked “forward” from there to show how “it’s worse than we thought.” I have not seen evidence of a single prominent consensus scientist who ever dissented from the orthodoxy that “global warming” was caused primarily by man, and “we have to do something about it” (ie. decarbonize, tax, regulate, etc.).

        And don’t raise Kerry Emanuel or Richard Muller as “former skeptics” unless you can (for the first time) cite to a paper, article or speech where they actually said “global warming” does not require any substantial government action.

      • The scientific ideas of CO2 sensitivity of 2-4 C per doubling were not controversial when estimated in Charney’s report in 1979. At that point it was academic science. It only became controversial when the link between fossil fuels and climate change was quantified and predicted using those ideas during the 1980’s and the 90’s where previous successes with acid rain and the ozone hole spurred on a similar effort for CO2.

      • tonyb, Slocum’s Figure 1 actually shows a line that would predict 370 ppm by 2000, which was quite a good estimate of what actually happened, and it was done in 1955. Certainly impressive.

      • captd, instead of taking Arrhenius’s radiative estimates, you need to take modern radiative transfer programs like MODTRAN and see the effect of doubling in each latitude band. This will put your estimate more in line with current thinking. There are papers by Schmidt et al. that do this all for you to check the global-averaged contribution of CO2 changes.

      • JimD, “captd, instead of taking Arrhenius’s radiative estimates, you need to take modern radiative transfer programs like MODTRAN and see the effect of doubling in each latitude band. This will put your estimate more in line with current thinking. There are papers by Schmidt et al. that do this all for you to check the global-averaged contribution of CO2 changes.”

        I have. MODTRAN is up/down only though Jim. You have to consider the anisotropic transfer and advection involved as well. As far as “current” thinking goes, the simplistic up/down approach is FUBAR.

        Once you consider the advection on all levels, i.e. meridional and zonal heat transfer that is driven by mechanical means, Coriolis, rotational and tidal influence along with hemispheric asymmetry, you find you have one marvelously complex puzzle. Not an unsolvable puzzle, but solvable only to a limited range of accuracy, about +/- 2C meaning CO2 forcing is less than the range of natural variability that can be expected.

        Mosher just posted an interesting link to a poster, http://www.fields.utoronto.ca/programs/scientific/10-11/biomathstat/Langford_W.pdf that can give you some idea about realistic limits. A. M. Selvam also has a bit of work on fractals that indicates there are “stable” as in much more likely ratios common to natural turbulent processes. Kinda of fun stuff.

        http://redneckphysics.blogspot.com/2013/07/its-perturbing.html

        If you have followed the discussions on SSW events and Brewer-Dobson circulation, meridional and zonal variations can push the stability range of the NH circulation much more than the SH atmospheric circulation creating those pesky pseudo-cyclic oscillations that drive folks nutz.

        You are still wading in the kiddie pool.

      • captd, you are slowly coming to a realization that you need a GCM, aren’t you. I was avoiding leading you in that direction, but you got there in the end.

      • JimD, “captd, you are slowly coming to a realization that you need a GCM, aren’t you. I was avoiding leading you in that direction, but you got there in the end.”

        I have known that from day one, but that is just to narrow the range of error, which is likely an exercise in futility using the current models. Aqua and Ridgeworld models are making progress, but simple static models can out perform many of the complex models.

        http://redneckphysics.blogspot.com/2013/07/imbalances-versus-toa.html

        That is a simple model based on Carnot Efficiency to estimate B-D energy transfer in the mid and upper stratosphere. That is not included in the AOGCM’s btw nor is the impact of SSW events. It is just a simple model but it does the job. The real bitch is an asymmetric ocean model which should have been step one for GCM.

      • captd, however, doubling CO2 only changes the energy trapping by 1%, so the behavior would still be quite linear and approaches such as Arrhenius’s which are basically perturbation analyses would still work. It is not like going to a Venus climate or completely changing the general circulation, or something. It is just we are very sensitive to even that 1% change which is not large in the big picture.

      • JimD, “captd, however, doubling CO2 only changes the energy trapping by 1%, so the behavior would still be quite linear and approaches such as Arrhenius’s which are basically perturbation analyses would still work.

        Right, for the 1% in a small linear range. That makes CO2 a good tracer gas. The problem with most of the model predictions is that they overestimate CO2 feedbacks and underestimate natural influences. The CO2 part is easy, Callendar’s simple model outperforms the modern models. The only reason my estimate is lower, 0.8C, is because of the back to basics black body cavity/radiant shell model that started the ball rolling to begin with. TOA imbalance responds to ocean imbalance which is fixed to the effective black body energy of the oceans, 335 Wm-2 @ ~4C degrees which is the black body temperature it should be. Earth is just a multi-layered black body. All of that is just accounting though. Had K&T balanced the Earth Energy Budget instead of trying to force it closed, we could have save a decade of quibbling. Now the middle atmosphere, stratosphere up, is needed to actually balance the budget which the false balance published in K&T hid.

        Now there is need to consider the areal difference with altitude, (1.5 to 3 percent error), Twilight (anisotropic absorption) and timing because anisotropic absorption produces basically pre-heat and holding temperature in the 75+ Wm-2 absorbed in the atmosphere.

        All that is pretty simple, it is the Self-Organizing Criticality that is the fun part.

      • Having now looked at Callendar’s 1938 paper and in particular Fig. 2, that McIntyre referred to. We see that he did his sensitivity for a fixed water vapor amount, so no water vapor feedback. His words imply that he thinks increased water vapor leads to increased cloudiness and water vapor solar scattering, but he did not quantify these, so he may have used this to dismiss the water vapor feedback, but it is hard to speculate. His own measurements of global warming, which were surprisingly good, were higher than his theory predicted.

      • JimD, “His own measurements of global warming, which were surprisingly good, were higher than his theory predicted.”

        That could be because his estimate was low or because there is longer term persistent warming. It is still kind of a toss up, but the long term persistence is gaining ground. That is the reason for the Oppo IPWP post and the following the energy post.

        http://redneckphysics.blogspot.com/2013/07/still-following-energy.html

        If you smooth out all the information, paleo is a waste of time, but being a little selective can be educational. ENSO and AMO are the largest known natural drivers and what better than the IPWP and Subpolar North Atlantic to estimate their past influence.

      • For anyone with access to Matlab another possibility is to pick the published code from Science of Doom’s lengthy thread. With all the explanations and discussion presented there it’s not too difficult (to many, but not all) to understand every step and get convinced on the basic correctness of both the approach and actual implementation. The results are also in fair agreement with those obtained from Modtran as long as the calculations are done for an atmosphere not too different of the Earth atmosphere.

      • I wrote my above comment without refreshing the thread first. Thus it refers to a message far higher in the thread.

        A full calculation of atmospheric energy transfers requires certainly much more than calculating the radiative part only. It’s easy to get convinced of that by reading any textbook of atmospheric science.

  24. Does anyone WHY Pee Dee Belemnite was established as δ13C value of zero for 13C/12C ratios?
    I know that had an anomalously high 13C:12C ratio (0.0112372), but I don’t know why this was used for calibration measurements.
    Was there a good reason for this choice?

  25. Roy Spenser Discovers Bird at North Pole

    At his web site Roy Spenser writes about his surprise at seeing a bird at the North Pole. I thought this might be a first, but to be sure, I Googled “bird north pole.” It turns out Roy’s discovery was nothing new. According to National Geographic, birds visit the north pole, but don’t live there. Perhaps Roy thought the bird was a resident.

    http://education.nationalgeographic.com/education/encyclopedia/north-pole/?ar_a=1

  26. I think it possible that by the year 2100, Earth’s global temperature may have risen by 1 C.It even seems remotely possible that global temperatures
    may have risen by 2 C, but any temperature rise above 2 C seems very unlikely, I can’t rule out supernova killing us by 2100. And can’t rule out other unknowns. I think higher than 2 C rise by 2100 is in realm of fantasy- rise of higher than 2 C caused by CO2 is close to impossible- beyond fantasy.

    I think due it’s that with couple decades, we could see cooling. And such possibility of cooling is consensus position largely having to do with predicting future solar activity. And there are other factors that could lead
    to such a prediction. So currently, there hasn’t been any measurable or statistical significant warming over last 15 years, and continuation of neither warming or cooling over next 2 decades is probably more unlikely than cooling or warming.
    But suppose the tread remains flat or cools over the next 2 decades, the question I wonder about is it possible that global CO2 levels can remain flat or decline? A one year dip wouldn’t mean much, but a few years of not increasing CO2 levels, could be somewhat earth shattering. The only factor which which not make it as earth shattering is the degree of error in the measurement of global CO2.
    It seems to me, as likely to see a decrease in global CO2 levels, as significant drop in global temperature or a rise in global by 2 C by 2100.
    So, unlikely but possible.
    So by significant drop in temperature would be more than .5 C decrease in trend over next 2 decades. I would say it seems more unlikely that over 2 decade the temperature increases by less than .5 C or decreases by less than .5.
    But suppose the Sun goes quiet within a year and stays this way for couple decades, and “other stuff happens” and the result is that within 2 decades
    we get the disaster of 1 C drop in global temperature. Would such dramatic
    drop over a long enough time period, affect global CO2 levels?

    Or let’s talk about something which would easier to happen, say polar temperatures were to significantly cool [and not have much affect upon global temperature] could this affect global CO2 levels. Or what happens if arctic region warm to such extent that one has noticeable greening- treeline jumps northward by 100 or more km. Or perhaps one has significant increase life in arctic ocean due to actual getting a ice free arctic
    during it’s summer. And/or once get volcanic eruption that provides enough iron over entire arctic ocean.

    So question is that within 2 decade time frame is possible, due to various factors, that we could see a measurable and significant decrease in global CO2?

    • Given that we have added 120 ppm so far, how much more CO2 do you think will be added by 2100 without mitigation? Three times as much? Four? Doesn’t this factor figure into your temperature increase?

      • According to NOAA (http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/ )
        atmospheric CO2 from all causes (i.e. natural and manmade) increased from approximately 315ppm in 1960 to 400ppm today. What is the source of “…we have added 120 ppm so far…”, and does the “we” include nature?

      • “Given that we have added 120 ppm so far, how much more CO2 do you think will be added by 2100 without mitigation? Three times as much? Four? Doesn’t this factor figure into your temperature increase?”

        So your question is that in more than a century we have had increase of 120 ppm, and question is in less than a century how much will global CO2 increase?
        Perhaps another 120 ppm. Maybe 240 ppm. And it seems very unlikely it would increase by 400 ppm.
        It seems to me that any government effort to date, which has been claimed to be using public resources towards reducing CO2 has had very little effect upon global CO2 levels or even national CO2 levels.
        The most significant effect that humans have done to have measurable or significant effect upon human emission of CO2, has been nuclear power plants. A governmental effect which also had a measurable effect
        has been policies which have result in slower economic growth. The recent and continuing great recession seems to have had measurable effect upon CO2 emission. Such things as requiring and government funding ethanol use, solar energy, wind energy, green energy research, hybrid cars, car standards, and etc, other than creating less economic growth, have not reduced CO2 emissions.
        Fracking which produces oil and natural gas, has been another major factor in reducing coal use, and therefore like nuclear energy has reduced CO2 emission. Blocking the pipeline, Keystone, has increased CO2 emission due to transporting oil in a means which causes more emission of CO2, than a pipeline uses. Blocking the Keystone pipeline has made the transportation of oil less efficient, and thereby as contributed to slower economic growth and increase prices. So other making people in general poorer [particularly the poor and lower income].
        Another factor which significant reduced CO2 emission, is market forces and improving technology [driven by market forces] which caused more efficient energy use. For instance the US is far more energy efficient than China, and China is benefiting from US technology and is significantly catching up, recently.
        So government action to date hasn’t worked unless one believes what works is creating more US and/or global poverty.
        So unless government mitigation [such China and India’s of increasing the amount nuclear power plants] actually reduces CO2 emission- it’s not relevant.
        China is largest CO2 emitter in the world, US is reducing it’s CO2 emission due largely to fracking and improving energy efficiency. And India will get to point having higher CO2 emission than US. India and China ever increasing the CO2 emission [relative to rest of world] mainly due to increasing amount of Coal electrical generation. And both these nations lack adequate coal reserves to continue such a rapid use of coal. Due to nature of the economies related to coal, the large quantities of china and India coal use can not be replaced with importing it. They can import say 10% but can’t import 90% or more.
        Both China and India import coal mainly due to high cost to domestically produce it. Politically and economical 50% or higher import seems unlikely.
        Therefore since we know their national coal reserves and we know their current consumption, and since coal is relatively costly to transport, we know these countries will need to switch to some other energy source which emits less CO2 [wood produces more CO2 per amount of energy- but wood isn’t an option, in terms of major source of energy for these countries].
        Briefly, we might expect than global CO2 emissions will remain around 30 billion tonnes and not expect this to double to 60 billion tonnes, though we should not expect China to reduce CO2 emission within next couple decades, but it’s in the card for such increase in coal use for much beyond 30 years.
        What is possible is more nuclear power use, and more fracking to get natural gas. Such things as increasing the supply of electrical energy,
        by using nuclear energy and natural gas makes economic sense, if permitted by governments, will reduce global CO2 emissions.

      • PMHinSC, 280 ppm is regarded as the natural level, so 400 ppm has been added, actually more like twice that, but half went into the ocean and biosphere.

      • gbaikie, my question had the desired effect, because just by scaling what has happened so far in emission and temperature with what will happen in terms of emission naturally leads to thoughts of mitigation and its need. Adding only 120-240 ppm in the next 90 years is a highly mitigated scenario, because it means lowering the current burn rate even with an increasing and developing world population. This could only happen with a global understanding of the problem, both in the developing and developed countries.

      • According to NOAA (http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/ )
        atmospheric CO2 from all causes (i.e. natural and manmade) increased from approximately 315ppm in 1960 to 400ppm today. What is the source of “…we have added 120 ppm so far…”, and does the “we” include nature?”

        It is guess that before the industrial revolution [a vague concept] and/or before human global population exceeded 2 billion, global CO2 was around 260 to 290 ppm. Jim picked 280 ppm added 120 ppm giving
        400 ppm. So well over century. You could say, 1850 to 2013, so
        163 years, CO2 might risen by 120 ppm. Though you also start at 1750 if wanted to.
        But you more correct point to the “315ppm in 1960 to 400ppm today.”
        As during this period in terms of human CO2 emission which is obsessed
        about by the CAGWers, it practicable all of human emission.

        So if you include what is measured the actual measurement is an increase of 85 ppm. How much is caused by humans is actually not known.
        One could also look it in terms of amount added. 1 ppm equals
        7.76 billion tonnes of CO2. 120 times 7.76 equals 931.2 billion tonnes
        So Humans emission from fossil fuel and cement making since 1960
        has exceeded 1000 billion tonnes.
        Currently: 2011 estimate is 33.3 billion.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions
        If that rate continues [and it should instead increase] in 30 year
        the world will add another 1000 billion tons.

        The problem is natural emission and absorption is only vaguely guess at
        but safe to say magnitude per year is more than hundred of billion tonnes.
        Vaguely one could say for 30 billion added about 1/2 remains of the atmosphere. But it’s all rather wooly. It’s religious doctrine, based upon a dislike for modern technology.
        But simply don’t expect something wild to happen, in the 50 year it went up by 85 ppm. And in another 50 years it might go up 100 ppm +/- 20 ppm. In fifty years population growth may stop. In fifty years China and India have no coal to speak of. In fifty years some think we might have shortage of oil.
        But what seems pretty certain, that in 50 years hoax of global warming will be history.
        But if we spent a 1/10 of what we already wasted on global warming, and got serious about space exploration, in fifty years we could be harvesting solar energy in space and beaming it to Earth- having zero “carbon footprint” and provide more than enough electrical power needs for every living on Earth.
        But also, if wanted to stop a hurricane, we could do that, and if wanted the planet warmer or cooler, we could do that, and do such things at a very affordable cost.

      • Jim D July 27, 2013 at 8:10 pm: “PMHinSC, 280 ppm is regarded as the natural level…”
        Is that another way of saying there is no data so you are using a ‘97% consensus’ number of 280ppm?

      • 280 ppm is the mean ice core value for the last millennium, but it started rising about the time man added CO2. There might be someone who doesn’t believe the natural level is near 280 ppm, but I haven’t heard anyone suggest that yet. It’s fine to go ahead and don’t take my word until you check the evidence for yourself. You will find even “skeptical” blogs have accepted this much, which gives you a chance to break new ground in “skepticism”.

      • “Jim D | July 28, 2013 at 1:16 am |

        280 ppm is the mean ice core value for the last millennium, but it started rising about the time man added CO2. There might be someone who doesn’t believe the natural level is near 280 ppm, but I haven’t heard anyone suggest that yet.”

        http://agwobserver.wordpress.com/2011/07/06/papers-on-atmospheric-co2-from-proxies/

      • Reference gbaikie | July 28, 2013 at 4:21 am |

        Thanks for the link which can be used to claim historical (read natural) numbers anywhere from 180 to well over 1000ppm. I do not claim to know how much man (or nature) has contributed to the last 120ppm rise. I would, however, be surprised if natural causes weren’t a major contributor to the rise from 280 to 400ppm. Comments such as “but it started rising about the time man added CO2” constitute correlation not causation and certainly not proof.

        It reminds me of Daniel Patrick Moynihan’s comment – “You are entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to your own facts.”

      • More examples of the 3% denier crowd. They can not even acknowledge that excess atmospheric CO2 is due to combustion of fossil fuels.

      • When people talk about preindustrial, they are not talking about pre-Ice Ages. Yes the Eocene may have had 1000-2000 ppm and temperatures 10 C higher to match. This only proves the sensitivity point. It took millions of years for it to drop from those to the pre-industrial values because it was in the ocean too, so only geological processes could remove it. Not sure what point those references are supposed to help with. Find someone who disputes that the last millennium was mostly near 280 ppm.

      • Jim D | July 28, 2013 at 12:56 pm |

        When people talk about preindustrial, they are not talking about pre-Ice Ages.
        Right, and they aren’t talking about pre- Little Ice Age either.
        Rather we can assume, it’s sometime after the invention of the steam engine or some time after American Independence.

        “Yes the Eocene may have had 1000-2000 ppm and temperatures 10 C higher to match.”
        But more important regarding Eocene period is location of the Antarctic continent. This was a period when an Antarctic hadn’t yet grown an ice cap- and it had trees and lots of animals other than penguins.

        “This only proves the sensitivity point. It took millions of years for it to drop from those to the pre-industrial values because it was in the ocean too, so only geological processes could remove it. Not sure what point those references are supposed to help with. Find someone who disputes that the last millennium was mostly near 280 ppm.”

        Geologic weathering would one major factors of removing CO2 from atmosphere- that part of natural processes which have not been measured with any accuracy- meaning the error bars in quantities guessed easily exceed all human emission- including all CO2 emission in addition to all fossil fuel burning.

        But there is no question human activity has added some CO2 to atmosphere, just as there is no question humans have added some warmth to global temperature. Or urban heat effect is something easily measured and it quite significant on regional level, but with CO2 emission
        it’s no where near as obvious to measure as compared to detecting a urban heat island effect. We have not yet measured the effect from increasing levels of CO2 or the increased levels which are considered to be caused from human activity. In other words we measuring down to a 1/10th of degree, and it’s not been measurable.
        To imagine that human could actually notice the temperature difference is
        ridiculous. But a human can feel the difference caused by urban heat island effect- this doesn’t require precise thermometers.

      • WebHubTelescope (@whut) July 28, 2013 at 12:49 pm:
        “They can not even acknowledge that excess atmospheric CO2 is due to combustion of fossil fuels.”
        And
        Jim D July 28, 2013 at 12:56 pm: “Find someone who disputes that the last millennium was mostly near 280 ppm.”

        I have no idea what “excess atmospheric CO2” is. My guess is that you have a circular argument: combustions of fossil fuels causes “excess atmospheric CO2” which is defined as the combustion of fossil fuels.

        The issue isn’t that preindustrial CO2 was 280ppm or that it is now 400ppm. The immediate issue is what was contributed by man and what was contributed by nature. I contend that is an unanswered question; you claim to know but refuse to provide proof. Declarative statements, changing the subject, correlation, and name calling are not proof and certainly aren’t science.

        The bigger issue is correlation between CO2 and climate. Until empirical data is available to prove that feedback is positive and significant, you make interesting but not compelling arguments. In the absence of proof you focus on CO2 while ignoring water vapor (a more potent green house gas) and albedo changes from carbon soot, land use, and perhaps other causes. I suggest you expand your rhetoric and discuss some other possible influences man may have on the climate.

      • PMHinSC (? Pre-menstrual hemorrhoids in South Carolina)

        It is all man-caused aCO2 and I have written book chapters and blog posts describing this effect in detail so that you can’t accuse me of not doing the ground work on this topic.

        In contrast, all you can do is blow smoke, which is the typical 3% denier solution to everything.

      • PMHinSC, if man has added twice as much CO2 through fossil fuel combustion as has appeared in the atmosphere, isn’t that definitive enough with some absorbed by the ocean? I don’t know what you are thinking. This sounds like Salby all over again, but he doesn’t understand the carbon cycle according to his own admission.

  27. What is the cost of policies to mitigate man made climate change policies, and what would be the benefit of such policies?

  28. I’ll try that again

    What would be the cost of policies to mitigating man made climate change and what would be the benefit of such policies?

  29. Steve McIntyre has a fine post over at climate audit. Some on that thread were discussing the Dunning Kruger syndrome. Seems to me the climate scientists need to clean their own house before turning an eye towards skeptics.
    From the post at the inimitable Climate Audit (pardon me if this has already been discussed, I haven’t had much time for blogs lately):

    “I thought that it would be an interesting exercise to see how Callendar’s 1938 “formula” applied out-of-sample when applied to observed forcing and compare it to the UK contribution to CMIP5 (HadGEM2), which I had been discussing. For my comparison, I used IPCC RCP4.5 forcing as a mainstream estimate, inputting their “CO2 equivalent” of all forcings (RCP4.5 column 2). It turns out that RCP4.5 column 2 “CO2 equivalent” includes aerosols converted to ppm CO2 somehow, as well as the other GHG gases (CH4, N2O, CFCs etc) plus aerosols (converted to ppm CO2). At present, I don’t know how these estimates have been constructed and make no comment on their validity: for this exercise, I am merely taking them as face value for a relatively apples-to-apples comparison.

    Callendar’s relationship was based on anomaly to “present mean temperature”. For my calculations, I adopted the 1921-1940 anomaly as an interpretation (differences from this are slight) and therefore centered HadCRUt4 observations and HadGEM2 on 1921-40 for comparison.

    Callendar’s Figure 2 is for “temperate” zones but he reported that the relationship was “remarkably uniform for the different climate zones of the earth”. For the purpose of the exercise, I therefore used the relationship of Callendar’s Figure 2 to estimate GLB temperature, recognizing that the parameters of this figure would only be an approximation to Callendar’s GLB calculation. I have not examined whether the Callendar formula might work better or worse for 60S-60N, as, in carrying out the exercise, I was not taking the position that the parameters in the Callendar formula were “right” – only seeing what would result.

    Here’s what resulted (as I showed in the previous post). A reconstruction from the Callendar 1938 formula applied to RCP4.5 CO2 equivalent seemingly out-performed the HadGEM2 GCM. While some readers presumed that “GCM-Q” must have incorporated some knowledge or information of second-half 20th century temperature history in the development of the “model”, this is not the case. “GCM-Q” directly used the formula implicit in Callendar 1938 Figure 2. (I realize that my interest in the results arises in large part from their coherence with subsequent observations, but it wasn’t as though I foraged around or did multiple experiments before arriving at the results that I showed here, the first runs of which I sent to Ross McKitrick and Steve Mosher.)”

    http://climateaudit.org/2013/07/26/guy-callendar-vs-the-gcms/

    • AGW deniers have to clean their own house first. There are dozens of krankpot theories that litter this site. Deniers turn their cheek over these because they likely figure more FUD is good.

      • David Young

        Webby, Back out of the basement for a while? I personally ignore the sky dragons. I also tend to ignore Appell and Connolley. I do pay attention to McIntyre, Annan, Curry, Loehe and the quality denizens here, such as Chief and Pekka. You are nastier than the sky dragons and offer grey literature so you should by rights be the first one for Judith to moderate.

      • Egg Foo Young, the master of scrambled science.

        Accusing scientists of bad numerical math skills without proof does not constitute a valid argument.

      • David Young

        I love the name calling which you share with Rush Limbaugh. One of your heroes?

    • Mosher, I just can’t imagine why they would want to drop the symmetry assumption /sarc

    • Thx, this is good! I’ve flagged it to include in a future post

      • Steven Mosher

        hmm also Robert has some some work on seasonality.some of the core charts will go up on the web site next week. its probably a bit too early to discuss them in depth.. but its related to the discussion..

      • Judith,

        I posted a question just south of here on albedo and GCMs.

    • Matthew R Marler

      That looks like a good presentation. Thanks for the link.

    • Finally! Something I can relate to what I’ve read about chaos!

      • Something is bothering me about the Langford W. paper posted by Mosher. Typically, in a chaotic system, the more energy that is applied to the system, speaking in general terms, the more it tends to a chaotic attractor. On the way to the chaotic attractor, the system typically exhibits “doublings.” In the case of Hadley cells, one would expect with incresing energy applied to the system; one cell doubling to two, two to four, etc. This hypothesis has the system moving in the opposite direction.

        It appears this is the case because the difference in the air temperature between the equator and poles is diminishing. In fact, only one pole is warming to any great extent – the North Pole – and this is due to warmer water. The Antartic is more isolated from the sea since it is composed of land.

        We know sea temperatures are linked to natural cycles and this is probably what has thrown a wrench in the CAGW’ers model machine. In the case of the Hadley cell model also, the warming of the Arctic could be due to the natural cycles.

        So even though the paper looks interesting and may have found a nugget of truth, the Hadley cell structure might in the end depend on natural cycles of the sea rather than only or at all on CO2.

      • The presentation is interesting, but it must be noted that the system they have modeled is in many ways different from the atmosphere. That may be the main reason for a comment in the conclusions of their original paper:

        The results of this paper lead to more questions than answers and will form the basis of much future work.

        They continue discussing some of the principal differences. The issues that they bring up have something in common with the above comment of jim2.

        The following comments from their conclusions are also very relevant:

        In addition, the model should be reconsidered to take into account the fact that the atmosphere of the earth is a strongly stratified compressible fluid, with properties very different from water. The vertical motion of a strongly stratified fluid is inhibited, thus causing an elongation (in θ) of the cells. The cells in a Boussinesq fluid typically have an aspect ratio
        close to 1, which implies that R must be rather large in order to see only three cells. In a strongly stratified fluid, a much smaller R (for a similar ΔT) would be sufficient to see a similar number of cells.

        R in the above is not the radius of the sphere but the gap between the two concentric spheres, i.e. “the height of the atmosphere”. The outer edge of their atmosphere is another surface, not a free space.

      • jim2, “Something is bothering me about the Langford W. paper posted by Mosher. Typically, in a chaotic system, the more energy that is applied to the system, speaking in general terms, the more it tends to a chaotic attractor. On the way to the chaotic attractor, the system typically exhibits “doublings.” In the case of Hadley cells, one would expect with incresing energy applied to the system; one cell doubling to two, two to four, etc. This hypothesis has the system moving in the opposite direction. ”

        The doubling etc. is more likely due to a break down in stability. An attractor is just a more stable point which would depend on more than just the energy in the system. For Hadley,Ferrel and polar cells there would be stability of sorts for an odd number of cells per hemisphere. So you could have a one cell system at low energy, snow ball, a three cell at mid-energy, ice house and another one cell at high energy, greenhouse. If the distance from the equator to the pole was greater you could have a five cell per hemisphere system. According to Selvam there are preferred ratios that tend toward stability. 1.618… to 0.618… based on the Golden Ratio and the Penrose fractal pyramid. would indicate a Hadley Cell surface area of 127mkm^, Ferrel Cell of 78.8 mkm^ and Polar cell of 48.7 mkm^2 would be stable which is about what the southern hemisphere ratio is with the ITCZ shifted north of the equator. So “ice house” is probably stable due to the ACC which fixes the southern polar cell in the 60 degree latitude range allowing for a more stable polar vortex.

        It is pretty interesting which ever way you go. Selvam just finds common stable ratios, fractals, while Langford is modeling N-S and coming close to the same conclusions.

      • Most of the energy driving the cells has to be centered on the equator. This means that vertical motion is the main driver. The difference in temperature from equator to poles is much less that that of surface at the equator to TOA.

      • jim2, “Most of the energy driving the cells has to be centered on the equator. This means that vertical motion is the main driver. The difference in temperature from equator to poles is much less that that of surface at the equator to TOA.”

        Actually, they are the same, just the distances are different. Water still condenses at around 0 degrees and the coldest TOA temperature that is relevant is 184K, same as the coldest temperature ever recorded in the Antarctic. For a slush/snow ball Earth the equator to sink temperature would be shorter so there could be only one cell. For a three cell you would have a greater distance to the polar sink, if the ratios are right, it would be stable like the SH. If not, more variable like the NH. That is one of the reasons I check so many regional standard deviations.

        As for most of the energy being at the Equator, yes but the thermal equator is actually 10 to 15 degrees north of the equator. That can shift 5 degrees and cause a degree of two difference in the global mean temperature. That changes the Hadley cell dimensions and the “westerlies”.

        http://www.gfdl.noaa.gov/bibliography/related_files/jrt0901.pdf

    • I’d blame the Poles. Clearly the Poles are the cause of all our problem.

      Solution: get rid of the ice at the poles. Then we could have an equable climate for all people and all the little critters.

      The global climate was more EQUABLE than today.
      Equable climate means:
      1. Warmer winters without much warmer summers; i.e. low seasonality.
      2. Low temperature gradient, pole-to-equator.

      More equity for all. What more could the ‘Progressives’ desire?

      • Well, Peter, I am of the belief that all men are created equatorial, so I can’t jump to the conclusion that only the Poles are to blame.

  30. I was wondering about Rivers of water in the Atmospheric Ocean and the impact of the projected added water vapor as a result of global warming to the atmospheric system.

    “The nexus between atmospheric rivers and extreme precipitation across Europe
    David A. Lavers*, Gabriele Villarini
    Geophysical Research Letters
    Volume 40, Issue 12, pages 3259–3264, 28 June 2013
    “Extreme precipitation and floods in Europe are a recurring natural hazard causing large socioeconomic damages. Here we investigate the connection between annual maxima (AM) daily precipitation at a pan-European scale and atmospheric rivers (ARs), narrow filaments that convey the majority of the poleward water vapor transport within extratropical cyclones. We show that ARs are responsible for many AM precipitation days in Western Europe. The relationship is especially strong along the western European seaboard, with some areas having eight of their top 10 AM related to ARs. The effects of ARs are also seen as far inland as Germany and Poland. Southern Europe was most affected by ARs under negative North Atlantic Oscillation (NAO) conditions, whereas northern Europe was more associated with a positive relationship between ARs and an NAO-type pattern. Our results suggest that ARs are critical in explaining the upper tail of the extreme precipitation distribution in Western Europe.”

    It seems to me that there is a non homogeneous water system in the atmospheric oceans. Calculating which water shed system the added water vapor would influence (rain upon) would be hard to model.

    lying on my back and watching the multi-layers of clouds passing, some cloud layers traveling in entirely different directions further adds to my questioning of how models account for such multi-layer cloud behavior.

    Rivers of atmospheric water. Multi-layer clouds. Calculating an average number doesn’t seem to do justice to the atmospheric system, let alone an ocean atmospheric model representation.

  31. Latimer Alder

    It s obvious that all the computer models are bad. They do not provide predictions that agree with subsequent observations.

    and so are not useful for us. Arrhenius did better back in 1906.

    But is there any evidence that all the blood and treasure spent ‘improving’ them has had any effect? Are they getting any ‘less bad’ as time goes on?

    Whenever I ask someone for any suggestion of a successful model, they quote Hansen of 1981, and try some handwaving to prove that being out by a factor of only 2 was in fact a triumph.

    But 32 years later, has all the money spent on them not come up with anything better? Are we now trending to models that are ‘only’ out by 1.75 or 1.5 or (perish the thought) right?

    If so ,where can we read about how this is being achieved?

    And if not, WTF are we doing spending so much money on things that are destined to fail?

  32. Albedo? Does anyone know how they handle albedo in the GCMs? It can change regionally over a few hours and at the North Pole, the combination of albedo and angle of sun, etc. would obviously be very important. Clouds certainly can affect albedo strongly but clouds are poorly understood. So, in the GCMs, do they use a single average value for albedo and change it once a year? Or do they use regional values and have it change monthly or seasonally (or continuously) and have it tied in with angle of incidence of sunlight and cloud formation?

  33. http://www.atmos-chem-phys-discuss.net/13/19751/2013/acpd-13-19751-2013.pdf

    Above is a new assessment of regional (and global) aerosol concentrations from quite a spread of US institutions. The take home message is that aerosol can only be understood by analyzing at a regional level given the very different (and often opposite sign) of the trends in each region.

    The paper can be related to many recent discussions such as BC in the arctic and the role of aerosol in Atlantic internal variability. But given the focus on The Pause in this blog recently I thought the global trends over the past 30yrs were interesting. This paper essentially concludes that at a global scale there has been very little variability in AOD for the 30 years of the satellite era. Aerosols has been put forward as one of the possible causes of the recent pause, favoured by Hansen I think, the global estimates here suggest that that is unlikely. Maybe one less variable to worry about in the puzzle.

    (There is a tonne of info here and generally accessible for an idiot like me)

    • It’s use as a fudge was predictable, as did Welikerocks and some foolish commenter @ the Blackboard years ago. Steve Fitzpatrick has been most elegant in his exposition of its use.

      Albedo is the tuning knob.
      ===================

  34. We knew it all along and Pekka confirms: Gaia is ‘of color’. Now don’t you think that ever-changing coat still veils her mysterious milieu interieure?
    =========================

    • OK, is threading torqued or did I mess up that placement looking up Claude Bernard?
      =========

  35. Paul Vaughan


    That’s what’s governing (centrally limiting) Pacific Northwest North America climate.

    Supplementary:

    http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/6451/1xx.gif (2-slide animation)

    See Marcia Wyatt’s “stadium wave” work for background clarifying why the differential equation works.

      • whut

        I need some help here. I am confused as to which category I belong: 3% or 97%.

        I know what I believe: earth’s temperature for the last 3 1/2 billion years has been a bounded random walk. What bounds the temperatures are the oceans and their currents. The variability within those bounds are reflected in the paradigm articulated by Tsonis et al.

        As you seem to be able to discern these things, maybe you can help me. Which category do I belong?

      • RiH008. Which category you belong in depends on whether you think changes in the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere affect global temperatures. If you believe, like I do, that adding CO2 to the atmospehre increases global temperatures, then you belong with the 97%. However, I believe that somewhere around 50 to 100 ppmv, CO2 absorption becomes efectively saturated. So adding CO2 to the atmosphere from current levels causes global temperatures to rise, but the rise is so small that it is negligible

      • Is the earth warming with humans contributing?
        They say
        Yes – 97%
        No – 3%
        Judge yourself on that.

      • Jim Cripwell

        From what I understand you to say, the climate responds to climate forcings linearly. As I understand what Edward Lorenz 1963 said, that climate, like weather, is chaotic and discerning climate forcings impact to predict the future was, shall we say, futile.

        To be a member of this great club, do I have to accept that CO2 is the climate control knob? or just that CO2 has a global warming potential based upon the wave length measurements made in physics labs and credible scientists have not been able to measure that impact in our atmosphere.

        From what I understand Chief to say, CO2 impact in a bistable climate state is negligible. CO2 only becomes an important actor in the climate drama at oceanic oscillation synchrony bifurcations when there is a potential for CO2 to impact abrupt climate change, the direction of which (warm, cold or the same) can not be predicted.

        I see there is no category for agnostic and the data for me at least is just not available to make a commitment.

        I feel like Oliver Twist…more data please.

    • Webby

      A week ago didn’t Judith promise a piece by Marcia Wyatt that would knock our socks off?
      tonyb

  36. The Warmist in Chief on the Key Stone Pipeline:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/28/us/politics/interview-with-president-obama.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&

    NYT: A couple other quick subjects that are economic-related. Keystone pipeline — Republicans especially talk about that as a big job creator. You’ve said that you would approve it only if you could be assured it would not significantly exacerbate the problem of carbon in the atmosphere. Is there anything that Canada could do or the oil companies could do to offset that as a way of helping you to reach that decision?

    MR. OBAMA: Well, first of all, Michael, Republicans have said that this would be a big jobs generator. There is no evidence that that’s true. And my hope would be that any reporter who is looking at the facts would take the time to confirm that the most realistic estimates are this might create maybe 2,000 jobs during the construction of the pipeline — which might take a year or two — and then after that we’re talking about somewhere between 50 and 100 [chuckles] jobs in a economy of 150 million working people.

    NYT: Yet there are a number of unions who want you to approve this.

    MR. OBAMA: Well, look, they might like to see 2,000 jobs initially. But that is a blip relative to the need.

    So what we also know is, is that that oil is going to be piped down to the Gulf to be sold on the world oil markets, so it does not bring down gas prices here in the United States. In fact, it might actually cause some gas prices in the Midwest to go up where currently they can’t ship some of that oil to world markets.

    Now, having said that, there is a potential benefit for us integrating further with a reliable ally to the north our energy supplies. But I meant what I said; I’m going to evaluate this based on whether or not this is going to significantly contribute to carbon in our atmosphere. And there is no doubt that Canada at the source in those tar sands could potentially be doing more to mitigate carbon release.

  37. Stephen Singer

    There’s an interesting article in Nature Geoscience that say’s man burning all earth’s hydrocarbon’s would not likely result in run away global warming that would evaporate all the oceans.

    http://www.nature.com/ngeo/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/ngeo1892.html

  38. R. Gates, the Dogmatic Warmist, kindly lectures me that the melting ice does not “release heat” in the atmosphere. Generous of him, except I never claimed it did. I was making the point, obviously lost on him, that a question he asked earlier assumed knowledge for which he had no data. His various responses, in various locations here, proved that to be true.

    The Dogmatic Warmist’s initial comment is here:

    https://judithcurry.com/2013/07/27/open-thread-weekend-26/#comment-353174

    “Based on the best current data we have, the total energy of the Earth system, summed across all spheres, has been steadily increasing for at least the past 30 to 40 years without pause, and closely paralleling the growth in Anthropogenic GH gases over this period.”

    Notice the claim not just that the “total energy of the Earth…has increased for at least the last 30-40 years,” but that it has “closely parallel[ed] the growth in Anthropogenic GH gases over this period.”

    So being an inquisitive skeptic, I asked where one could find the data showing this “close parallel” or correlation between “total energy” and GHG emissions. To know they were running parallel, it seems somewhat logical that you would have to be able to quantify both. So I asked the eminent Dogmatist where he found such data. His response:

    “Oceans by heat content and sea level rise, cryosphere by total mass, and biosphere by total area all would indicate a steady to accelerating accumulation of energy in the Earth system.”

    https://judithcurry.com/2013/07/27/open-thread-weekend-26/#comment-353322

    Follow the thread from that last comment, and you see the august WebHubThermageddonist chiming in:

    “RG, a lawyer such as Gary shouldn’t be expected to know how to do math-based physics such as calculating energy imbalances.” Web at least understood I was asking about calculations of energy imbalances. Calculations, not WAGs.

    To make a long obscurantist story short, each time I asked for data showing this alleged “close paralleling” of the “total energy of the Earth system” with anthro GHG emissions, I am told how dumb I am for not knowing it is in the cryosphere and biosphere. When I ask how one can measure the “total energy” they contribute to the Earth system (admittedly in a sarcastic way), I am informed that of course they don’t. Which was of course the point of my rhetorical questions. But they don’t apparently teach logic in climate school, any more than they teach critical thinking.

  39. A Hamburger for Mr. McKibben

    AN OPEN LETTER TO BILL MCKIBBEN OF 350.ORG–

    The Hadley Center email scandal was something I had dismissed. But this gem from Phil Jones changed that: “Bottom line – the no upward trend has to continue for a total of 15 years before we get worried. We’re really counting this from about 2004/5 and not 1998. 1998 was warm due to the El Nino.”

    Yet there is still good reason to believe that people are influencing climate and that the climatic system is one that is sensitive. However, there is also good reason to believe that proponents of the climate change theory themselves have, in vino veritas, little personal inhibition to really do anything anyhow.

    I started to realize this much myself when I visited World Wildlife Fund’s U.S. website and took the Carbon Calculator survey. Though I do not feel convinced in the climate change theory, my score of a 16 made me realize that a lot of the problem is well beyond my control anyways. You may want to take the same survey. Granted, someone who is an evangelist of the alarmisms of climate change does get to have a high score, knowing all the work and travel that goes into spreading the word.

    However, there is one aspect of the climate change evangelist’s lifestyle where this excuse does not apply–and it is the same area which represents the bulk of my own carbon score. No evangelist of climate change can really convince me of changing what I do without committing himself to a strictly vegetarian lifestyle. Though there are some on the fringe of the AGW camp who do follow through, it is an ironic peculiarity that the vegan evangelists represent a small minority, and it is from there own websites and discussions that I have found the greatest opening in disputing any need for action on climate change whatsoever. You can actually look at a person and tell what he eats, and clearly, some of these climatologists haven’t given up on burgers and steak. The list of vegetarian celebrities is pathetic, most of whom I am not familiar, and there choices probably have little to do with environmental issues.

    Not to forget what James Hansen said with this [inappropriate blogosphere adjective] comment, “I’ve almost become a vegetarian.” In other words, I’m not calling myself an ovolactovegetarian because I really haven’t given up on meat.

    Please understand the weight of this inconsistency when you discuss this scientific issue; a review of a climate change evangelist’s lifestyle is a relevant point. Tiger Woods limits his cheating to women, not golf. So in the present era it is not so offensive for some to see him out there on the course at St. Andrews, but I think many people would take exception to the idea of Woods becoming pope. And that is the perfect analogy to this debate.

  40. A recent Oxford Union climate debate with Richard Lindzen featured. Also participating, Myles Allen, David Rose and Mark Lynas. Good moderator too, whose pointed questions didn’t let Ljndzen get away with much.

    • Subjects discussed include “the powers” supposedly controlling the consensus and global scientific community, the 97%, uncertainty and precaution, futility of all current solutions and recycling, etc.

  41. R. Gates the Skeptical Warmist

    Rather late for Open Thread “Weekend” but this was some interesting resarch and findings that corroborates model output with real world measurements. This is related to the strength a the QBO and its decline over the past few decades:

    http://phys.org/news/2013-05-tropical-upper-atmosphere-fingerprint-global.html#nRlv

    Now interestingly, a side effect of the greater vertical lift being found in the tropics, in addtion to diminished the QBO, is the enhancement of the Brewer-Dobson circulation (BDC). The large circulation pattern that brings air from the tropics at very high stratospheric and even mesospheric levels has been projected (by models) to increase as GH gases increase. Another upshot of this is that the once projected tropical troposphere “hot spot” seems less likely, as in fact the warmer air is simply increasing the vertical lift over the tropics, leading to the results discussed in the article above. Very interesting.

    • It probably would have been a better idea to promote the stratosphere to mesosphere portion of the GHE instead of that tropical troposphere hot spot doncha know.

      ” While this circulation is so slow that a blob of air may take decades to travel to the upper atmosphere, it impacts the chemical composition of the global atmosphere because many chemical properties are very different in the lower and upper atmosphere layers.”

      That part will be interesting to see explained in detail.

      • R. Gates, the Skeptical Warmist

        I’ve always be quite skeptical of the tropical troposphere “hot spot”. Those earlier models that showed it were quite incomplete in their BDC dynamics and the QBO as well, and the “hot spot” is greatly diminished when these are taken into account along with a general broadening of the tropopause north and south of the equator. In short- the energy for the hot spot is actually going up and out. This is being seen over significant time frames.

        In regard to the “taking decades” for a “blob” of air to travel upward, during SSW events, we see a rapid upward motion of air at the equatorial stratosphere during SSW events over the pole. Air is rapidly descending over the pole and rapidly rising over the equator in the stratosphere over the course of just a few days– a teleconnected dynamic covering some 9000km that gives a quick acceleration to the BDC (and simultaneously affecting the QBO by way of diminishing the wind speeds)

  42. 製品ラベル: 党投資トップ、ファッション ショッピング中国、女の子 dressesFeaturing スーツのため国コンテキスト魅惑的な古典的なまたモダンな同じ日陰でによって: ダイアナ |2013 年 7 月 22 日 – スタイルは個人のおもちゃとしてみなされています。人々 は個人で構成される特定の外見を機能するために必要したがってと。偽の製造バッグ、もはや変更、ユーザーのかなり、魅力的なプロセス等のような多くの機能。あなた簡単にビニール袋から人間の目を観察できるし、すべてクリア ポケット。我々 は販売数量でまたは個別に。サプリメントの私達のセクションを見てをいます。

    アルマーニ腕時計

    しかしも、通常の”完全に覆われた「バッグ メッシュの組み合わせよりもよりよい保護を与えます。メッシュ洗濯製品は本当が、私たちの大半は標準的なものは「固体」かもしれないを好むどれだけ。商品を保持している機能を使用する右から伸びるそれに印刷されてあなたのオンライン ビジネスのロゴを必要とします。ストア、製品、イベント、またはプロモーションの仕事からイメージの周り広範な影響があるかどうかは、紙や布バッグ印刷ランドセルを作成します。卸し売り財布は間違いなくあなたの人生に場所場合スタイルとギミックはニッチのために。

    腕時計 レディース

    有機と自然のバッグは、ショッピング、または多分ちょうど遍歴に最適です。食料品の生産の負荷を提供またはセクション供給しているようだ豊かな割引が発生する場合あなたの研究についてバッグの所持しています。グッチのスタイルで実際によく知られているコーヒー マシンです。グッチ腕時計、帽子、アクセサリー、下駄を提供その最も標準的な項目のいくつかの企業の途方もない様々 な提供しています。事業取得詳細描画の前に、近くより手取りより高速にサポートいたします。それは何か欲しい rrn あなたのケースですか?”(これは何かに最も直接アレンジ、送信する約 10 秒かかります、正しいを取得し、見なさ確かに自分の時間を無駄にしません。

    ガガミラノ腕時計

    作る私たちの圧縮の特定のレベルは none に 2 番目のアートワーク、あなたの写真や、GIF を JPEG だけの画像形式を使用して作成します。

    ジャガールクルト腕時計

    ストッキングの袋を使用しても丈夫。子供のおもちゃ。キッズおもちゃは、再生の横断つしか結局頻繁に汚れています。両方を接続している高品質の靴のゴムヒールソールのこのレートはどこでもハドソンのモータボートシューズの上だけ突破。スエード探求は茶色がかったと題したpingを上げボトムス両方を選択することができます。。

    「あなたは最も確かに正しい」と言います。「私も入れているこのタイプ オフ永遠に」。オンライン ピッキングの子供たちを着用する快適で安全な臨時の経験。それらの良さを購入する時間を過ごす時間を見つけることができません、全体的な健康の店で。オハイオ州の人と答えた OWDY 欲望の把握が。チャーリーは正確にされていたも道もとても暑かったために非常に最初の時間の外国人と彼女または彼は後に 50 %、chilis を落とした。両親に会い、他をチェックだけでなく、私たちはあなたとあなたの家族のおむつバッグ グラフィックを共有する、あるいは彼らのおむつ袋で持っているか?スライド ショー。

    2012規律打ち上げパースペクティブ手首、それが印象的なきれいな顔であることを起こる、非常に創造的なデザインは、大きな需要がありました。だから個人常に靴のための権利であるどんなブランド美。必然的に、現時点では、試合に適したブロックすることができる描写1自身だ。それは普遍的な問題、続いて、単に年齢に成長、女性は絶対に彼らの官能ANF夫の美しさの一部としてハンドバッグを崇拝する。トートバッグは、順番にみんなにアピール??魅力的な方法につき感覚だけでなく、ファッショナブルなハンドバッグであることが成長すると、流行のおもちゃのようなものを所有する賢い方法となっていることを主張することは間違っていないものとして。

    「新しい 3 百を雇うことができた我々 それらの製造を生成している植物、」氏 Carcelle 有名です。強化されたまたは影響力のある顧客に到達も直接対応するは難しいです。000 は本当にメールの彼ら – 個々 の使い捨てを読み取ることができませんとほぼ 2 つの大学を卒業した 3 つのフォークから下および/または $50 獲得率は 65 % です !マーケティングのプール客観的バランスとスキルの開発アプローチし、それがないもたらすことご希望または結果を確認してください。

  43. 合成の財布を伴ういただくと、今でも希望は良い取引の信頼性の高い小型のほとんどから。適切なハンドバッグで注文可能な特定のヒントに固執する必要があります。でも大きな袋優れたいくつかの行事のためには選択する必要があります慎重に保つことができます。6、着色されたプラスチック バッグ (深紅色または黒と白の色) は、食品梱包および発送に依存できません。第六に、魅力的な環境の汚染が原因で、あなたのそれぞれの食品スーツケースに簡単に分解したがって、我々 より良い読むべき料理を販売を緑の包装拾い読みの特性によって。

    ルイエラール腕時計

    キャンバス トート バッグますます人気を集めています。このスタイリッシュなギアがそれの中で 1 つは、再生可能エネルギーを提供します。名前のレプリカ プライベート コーチに対して本格的なインストラクター ハンドバッグ ハンドバッグをチェックの中心部に 1 つは、物事のグレードです。近くの観測による本物の達人ハンドバッグ ラインと美しい素材の上部、理想的な探している右下プライベート コーチのハンドバッグと動物ケース グッチ トートバッグ レザー。32 歳の彼の利便性を運ぶ任意のテキサンズ瞬間的なゲームは、フェージングをすることができます。コーチは今どのくらいの速ファンの質問を取得します。

    シャネル腕時計

    しかし、リンゼイはナンセンスとタフだったが、彼女が話した経験、競技者に思い出させるリンジーローハン肥満されて分の物語を持っていた。アウディ職業、A4 の第二世代の時に動作するときそれサブスクライバーは使用可能なインテリア空間と触媒の魅力を高めることに休日の魅力を一覧表示します。アウディは、web BMW 3 シリーズ明らかにメルセデスベンツ K クラスについての実質の競争相手を作成することでこれらの関数を正常に経験しました。

    ジャガールクルト腕時計

    この時計は、高品質の古典的な時代を超越した作品だけかもしれない。バック ポケットの実質的な膨らみが含まれていますが余分な重量財布をスリム化します。通常、お客様がサインインの理解の維持可能性があります完了とポーズで行く。ビジネスは人の詳細を観察する必要があります。Eurohandbag のダンス靴は他のデザイナーの財布またはハンドバッグ; より任意の違いではないです。平均クライアントまたはハンドバッグ愛好家頻繁に彼らの境界を突破すること、ファッションのハンドバッグをリーズナブルな価格で提供されることはのみ。

    ドルチェ&ガッバーナ腕時計

    卸し売りデザイナー財布アウトレットはスタイルの無限の範囲を提供します、生地、サイズ、あなたよりももっと多くの色が想像することができます。焼けるように暑いの新しい製品と一緒になって本当に速やかに説得力のある方法は通常トリー ・ バーチ分配器プラグ意思を探して移動します。テ ・ Casan は常に、最も成功したトレーナー事業に関する新しい損益分岐点の豪華な靴またはブーツの驚異的なモデルを持っています。彼らは通常あなたを生産しているが早く、時にアドバイスを達成するためにベテランの高く評価されているコミュニティを参照してください。

    右ここで署名商品は好かれてそれの上に良い素晴らしいとスタイルに係る感謝しています。私たち確かに言えるプラダの財布で増えつつあるし、リアルタイムかけ豪華な荷物の中で、重要な市場の課題を占められます。あなたは基本的には本当に優れたバッグ サプライヤーでのもののペアを確認するためには。最初に、次の段階はチェック プラス彼らは実際に購入を所有していることをどこに通知するために基づいています。フレキシ ループ キャリア アウトレット、ブティック、および活気に満ちたデザインの幅広い選択肢を用意し、装飾デザイン風景やそれ以外の場合の数字を含む食料品店で教育を受けています。

    彼は彼の多くの信号を見つけるがあなたの恋人は維持する予約されたチームとしてだけでなくクルスと Marinelli の下で強い防衛を思い付いた呼び出しを誓った。しかし、初期の提案のヒントこの個人はまた含むためにエメリー楽観的図しわを追加する計画。そのから離れて、彼らは非常に直接企業から得て品質物質です。また迅速なショッピングおよび肯定的な訪問するサービスのトランスポート ウェブ ショップに楽しむことができます。靴、グッチ 1921 社会グループは、あなたと相まって女性通常したく購入または収集します。

    卸売ハンドバッグ アウトレット様式、方法、サイズおよび想像できるより多くの色の無限の配列を提供します。本当に、最も基本的な説得力のある素晴らしい方法これらを得るために焼けるように暑い製品を更新することができる行く食料品ショッピング トリー ・ バーチ壁プラグがあります。ひとつのなかで良いトレーナーは、Te Casan 頻繁の清潔について回損益分岐点のゴージャスな靴の途方もない種類があります。彼らがあったうちの早期かつ頻繁に口の言葉を達成するために初歩的なベテラン セーフ コミュニティを生産します。

    彼らはグローバルに活用し、高度な文化サークルと共にこれらの袋で、いわばその不思議ではないです。特に膝の最小化を取得され、結果として改善”トレンド インチを男性と女性の筋肉構造弾力性。すべての追加、原因任意の冷遇など経済的な構造が判明意志力および他の抑制に関する西同胞、あなた自身の個人ではなくインフレのギアの中でも Ugg アウトレットを講義、シェイク ヤマニ内の明示的なシーン。

  44. プライベート キー フレーズ rnallows、outsoucring の助けをアウトソーシングするリセラー、高層 rnservice キャリアすることができます、あなたの主なメリットを享受しながらカスタマイズを感じると rnfeel。プライベート ソート ソリューション構成されます最も複雑な以来ほとんど rnoffer 高度なカスタマイズ、クルーズ コントロールの。もう 1 つは実際にあなたの近所のクラッチ クロス、これは実際にハンドルを運ぶ非常に便利です。同様に折り畳みがあるお奨め他ペチュニア痛み底のおむつ袋を持つボトル ポケットが多いだけでなくパッドを交換することができます簡単に消毒する湿らせた布を拭くことによって。これらのよく知られている旅行および鉛の生活様式を導く人の母親の模倣します。ストレージ。トイレタリー体が他の分離している人、いくつかの選択したコンパートメントを持っていることを確認します。これらのコンパートメントの保存し、整理の有効成分を袋に簡単にユーザーに役立ちます。RSS の集中の増加を利用します。1 つの方法をプレス リリースを提供し、Google のレポートと Web サイトのニュースのような財団ニュース プレーヤーに達すると、必ずです。(A) モップ メディアにプレス リリースを取得する;(b) 自分で戻ってなしで; ウェブサイト電子メール アドレス要求ごとの構成を web ページにリンクを発見します。(c) あなたの事項のためのより多くの可視性があります。このウィークエンダー バックパックはあなた本物の布の生地から作られました。彼らは設計されて、フラットな底面と 3 つの内部ポケット。この世帯の革週末バックパック スタッズ楽勝ストラップ優れたと洗練さとスタイリッシュな外観を誘発することを来るとき添付されます。言い換え、クマに成長した、家族のメンバーの最も非常にどのように彼のチームが勝ったのため防衛首都。

    エベラール腕時計

    メーカーは様々な株式サイズの店バッグの多様な範囲は、あなたがシーリング製品にしたい場合に実施するのに必要なすべてのバッグの正確な高さと幅を選択することですラッピング気づくように提供され、その中に製品を配置した後、ヒート·マーカーを使用した次の手でそれを封印。一度緩めるによって扇動、バッグが40%とバルーンが、彼らはまた、隔離または展開から電子ブックを保護するマイクロあき通気を持って前にで減らす。例を含むためには、それらのハードウェア、それに付属装置、ネット接続を取得。オンラインの世界のホストは、ギアリング​​彼のデータ、機器を収容し、それは単にセキュア続けています。それに、あなた自身へ。人生はしないもので、生きていることです。単純に重さではないよりも頻繁に詰め込む私たちが低下し、あなたの方法の内側に立っている。移動ユーティリティとして、成長しているだけでなく、変更を行うことが、果物を手放すた。グッチのファッションショーは、豪華な要素を使用せずに早期に接触した学生を作ることができる社会的実践を持っていることによって大学のキャンパスで取得しましょう​​。完全に高級品サッカーの練習を卒業し、それらの多くの優れた機能の良い例でありそうであることに注意してください。すべての機器には、2つの指先、多分必ずいくつかの他の人のフォーム品のコースがありますが、他の薬は非常に有害な影響を閉じていません。”ZIP”を使用し、任意のバッグは仕事がはるかに少ない、我々は上に置くあらゆる機会に快適になるだろう。無数の可愛いバッグが市場に達しています。彼らは様々な種類の目的のためにac​​ustomedですどちらが取得可能である、袋を開始、ランドセル、お弁当を販売し、袋が何であるかではない。。

    ドルチェ&ガッバーナ腕時計

    キリスト教の Louboutin ビビ 140MM(Black) 靴単が好きと女性によって異なる対人球と感情的に関与します。ビジネス磁石をピッチに通常すぐそばメーカー、内部すべて女性下駄タップでいくつかのまともなペア maded をしてもらいたいです。主に事故の厚さが通常ために滑りやすい場所に投資するそれらのセクターを保存使用されます。場合は適切な成長を通じてこの牛肉をドン彼ら動機とニーズ エンパワーメント トレーニングすぐにしばしば感じるすべての彼らはまた行っているものとしては募集 1 つが別のチームを取得するだけを訓練できます。A たくさん投資、年間と考えられています。残念なことにすべての企業だけでなく IFAs および Supplliers) を訓練は誰が最高の効率を参照してくださいにコンサートで争うことが人々 によって作成されます。オーストラリア flatsoled ブーツ グッチ トレーナーに関して厳格なディオールも上記と比較してかなり適度なようであります。しかし、これらの穏やかな蛇口を達成する快適さのレベルが同等である必要があります。使用されたメリノ羊から来るこれらの日 200 進歩した古代オーストラリアの作成します。広がる非常に翼に多くの場合、貿易規模の投資を行った続けて”後働いた何 yr”の伝統的な轍の中で立ち往生力部新しい媒体は与える革新的なアイデアを即座に変更をとらないものを実現するためにあなたを解放するのに十分です。バーチャル デザイン ショーでとても心配を維持それの内部流れ chap 設計上の制約や訪問者。また、はるかに。あなたの所有の変更に関するヘルプ。AAPL の約 14% ビジネス コントロール、モバイル e コマースに関する 90 % 以上。グ一グル andriod 年前に作成これらの事を恐れていたので、行われるでしょう。最初ピッチの死におびえていた。E コマースの前方方法です Andriod AAPL 徐々 にモバイル ホテルになることを見てあなたの絶対的な力見出しに障害を構築するしようとする作成した実際に携帯電話を認識しました。

    腕時計 激安

    偉大なクマやったことがない同様に彼ら自身非常にスーパーありシーズンで方法背中以来 2006年何かする必要があります。カトラーだけかもしれない、選択耐えたが、脂肪の平均を下回る 148 期間約四季のサッカーを取得します。圧力の種類は新しいゲーム マスター フィル エメリーは 1 つ彼の高品質の優先順位に関するを介してそれを作った理由は手頃な価格の攻撃的な再生ゴルフを得るにつながるいない 2013年を傷つけます。これらのバーバリー コンセントは実際にあなたの元と非常におそらく決め付けられたギフト オフを選んだの対応です。最も美しい違い、品質で、したがって、値の範囲の利用できます。バーバリー ストア モール高齢者製品はない安価かつ高品質な材料から作成されます。安いキャンバス バッグは、内側に最も人気のあるオプション トートバッグを購入します。またビニールの作成でしたそれらの袋ではなく環境にやさしいオプションです。かどうか衣服素材の提供に必要な製品としてすべてのあなたの貴重な目的を満たす毎日、小売商に買物をすることを確認します。華やかなトップ ブランド グッチ大きく進歩した方法 !それが議論の余地の選択肢影響力のあるヘアスタイ住宅として動作します。ベストセラーのイタリアのブランド取った最初のステップ グッチオ教祖によってフィレンツェ方法で 1921 年に。彼はその年にグッチのブティックをオープン初心者のため。合理化された袋はまだ一目補足格好良いとだけすることがないように平凡なしなやかなビニール袋。エコ フレンドリーなバックパックは、定期的に楽しいことができますを介して安全な結論の方向に頂点に係る彼女知っている文字列です。製造元が完全に配置されるこれらの手のバッグとしても同じ興味として。お互いに議論を維持するために十分な情報を与えます。

    ロンジン腕時計

    それは非常に高級車、しかしそれ isn’t 任意のリンカーンタウンカーは懸濁液を必要があります、非常にシステムは難しい可能性があります削減します。リンカーン車の場所のための背骨衝撃を削除する必要がある場合は無効にすべき懸濁液ポンド最初だけ意味することができるのビーチに面した外観後部驚かせるため。主な目的として維持するリンカーン自治体車に対して中断された空気のボックスは、間違いなく、酸素を削除することができますソースすべての最初の袋と。カスタム印刷ジッパーのついたバンプ製造の機会はあなたが 15 のほぼすべての装置のための時間のいくつかの量 10 です。確かにしてくださいプリンターを選択して荷物を急ぐ対照的に緊急性がある場合本を印刷する前にすべての呼び出しは袋シリンダーは作り出されるたびに、または印刷中にバッグを運ぶこと我々 は、フォームを変更できないため、これより多くの利益を印刷することができない従って法定機能テキスト懸念だけでなく、問題します。私はあなたの新しいレシピを提供します。ウェブポータルを。私のほかに発生します。「ファッショニスタ」は 1 時間で本当に幸せにすることができます。またはので私たちの空港貨幣を殺すために管理まだ交渉前にほぼすべての彼らの旅の後に単に購入するお金。クスト、SBT、アドルフォ ・ ドミンゲス Desigual に加えてコッテ州エレラ、多くのショップを選択します。映画 Desigual 店、活気に満ちたカラフルなまた。多くの金属の豪華な贅沢プラス absoluetly を選択する人の家人工皮革困難特定のバックル、5 貨物のコンテナー内足底の買い物客はそれらは securer を凍結の挑戦で、鍵穴のメディアが適切な服を着ての依存します。

    コンバース期待異なる人の家族の男性、女性、子供、等。これらの製品に逆トランク エリア店舗人々 は区分および重要なさまざまな靴のスタイルを簡単に自分の足を一致する余裕があるより多くの快適さを比較するときのような選手をおよび多く着色に変換できます。スポーツの世界の周りにも今は日の乗組員はまたこのコンバース ビジネス ロゴ彼らのチームのどれだけ靴を好むの魅力は、それに快適な恵み。タグ: 123, 123 の 123Key 化合物で 123 を取る喜び: ビルギット ・ コールマン |2013 年 7 月 24 日 – 開発台所実用性そしてまたホーム提示製品が単にあなたを提示する必要がありますか個人的な機会にインドであなたのゲスト ハウス温暖化取得一緒に記念日例えば eid、ディワリ、クリスマスなどのお祭りを忘れてはなりません。安全で楽しい物質必要がありますね。タグ: 123, 123 a: ビルギット ・ コールマンの方法指導の 123 の英国によって 123Immediate |2013 年 7 月 24 日 – 私の 2 番目の敷物が見えますが、私は許されているカット一人ひとり失うそれ doesn’t であるかどうかにかかわらず、すべてがうまく行ってほしいよ。どのように、話す陰の混合物については、しコーチ サンダルのこの排他的な品揃えを自由に作ることができる今ない読み込まれている色を使用して鮮やかな言及との方法は取得最も厳格にアピールするつもりであるものの最も有益な組み合わせのために信者の。成功を達成するために磁界オーラの異なる価格を観察することの重要な視力範囲です。我々 はめったにない感じるコーチ サンダルのたくましさを認識する必要がありますが次一度カップルを購入している、本当にそれらを保証リラクゼーションとを超えて毎日。すべてのペニーは、郵便サービスの側面があります。これは間違いなくコスプレでなります。セーフガードが好き personating 一般的なキャラクターに関連付けられているよりもむしろ映画 toons の衣装に興味がある通常の衣装を作ったものと奇妙なまたは性的な活動方法参加者自分のキャラクターとの生活を楽しんで表示を中心に展開します。

    この特定の可能性がありますお肌彼らを開く技術者を含む単純なバイヤーの後の治療でそれらについて減らされた受信に輪郭です。キャップその技術者にアクセス私たちに包、上記の救済策の中で効率的なは本当に。彼らはさらに大きな考えをすることができます、あなたを明るくする場合は、この特定トラブル フリーの私たちの方法をすることができます格安コーチ財布歯 2 5 色だけすぐに見つけます。7 つの生活します。すべての様々 なサービスを使用して最も可能性の高いその過酸化水素のスキンケアを誘発する内製品は、おそらくレンブラント サファイア (フラット ケージ ドア アーク lgt)、郵便番号 !ナイキ気道ヨルダン 4Christian ルブタン販売コーチ ハンドバッグ (鋼ハロゲン明るさ)、BriteSmile (ガソリン液晶/LED ランプ)、ハイ ・ ストリートの LaserSmile (Biolase フラクショナル レーザー)、レトロジョーダンも LumaArch (ハロゲン ライト)それは学校操作を含むすべてのもので、砂糖の歯、あなた可能性のある時間になって数分のクリスチャンル ブタンの靴のすべての種類の変色アナリスト傾向があるあなた自身の標準ルーチンが変色を達成し続ける人のため。これはその体液、アンダー目の出てくるのです。4. 2 未使用ティーバッグ (自宅での富を持って人々 のための購入) ご連絡します。ディップ 31 秒氷の水でについて。オキソ-生分解性ジャケット袋を提示するたくさんの利点があります。オキソ-生分解性ポリマー キャンベル製品をリサイクルし、最終製品を提供しない否定的に影響を与えます。作成、リサイクルから実際に特定の継続的な添加物を非アクティブ化します。

    良いヒントは 10 MB ビデオに関するほぼすべての分です。オペレーティング システムに関する迅速かつ圧縮の手順を表示するオンラインのチュートリアルがあります。カメラの妻または夫の不正行為を防ぐため。インストール カメラ テディー ・ ベアは多くを躊躇するターゲットにビジネスする必要があります家からよい防衛。最大限の保護の企業統合警報システムに閉回路テレビ (CCTV) カメラを提供します。それはほとんどビットの土地の購入できる個人投資家の皆様南平明避難所、ビル、住宅建設、購入、李明、南平を調整する都市、束の住民で、ウェブ上のコーチ念頭その南平はまってる、ほとんど外国人に理解されます。李、潮州私たち 4 つだけの方法広昌、村の開始から来てアウト避難所を探している企業にも Ming の重要な役人を言ったが李、明の事件で日付で不足している、破損している企業をしようとしてノウハウ責任がある、明李人事件の開発者それにもかかわらずこれらの町の議員の補償の届く範囲の建築業者を強いる素晴らしい損失に傾向があります。、に関連して、この会社は非常に激怒を破損しています。町エグゼクティブのと考えるトレーダー投資家を捜す言い逃れだけでなく、光栄かくまって疑われるシナリオに関するエグゼクティブと働くことを拒否しました。

    バッグに関して多数の必要があるでしょう、場所をすべてのそれらの多くの女性のためのものですがまた、多数の専門職の男性用のバッグです。1 つの仮想例腰袋男性に関するコレクションに置きます。これら bookbag 本当にビジネス スタイルまたは多分 1 つを提供快適さ与える考察のそれに対処します。そのボストン ・ ブルーインズにダース各季節マイク Milbury 一緒に身を置くは刺客、執行者および満足積極的な選手に利用可能な市場氷の上。1 つの記憶に残る試合、彼は氷から離れて物事の十として彼自身を証明書利用者に、プレキシ ガラス スタンドでに関して登りが本当に当たって彼購入する靴の 1 つに各手に負えないファンに関して。Milbury は個人的な中断多くの 3 つの NHL トライアスリートの間で複数のゲームまた支出 $500 罰金もほぼすべての事件。コミュニケーション研究はすべての連絡先の理解依存顔ボディ ジェスチャー、7 % の単語を支持する彼らの方法のトーンで 38 % する必要があります体の横に 55 % と告げています。ロンドン ボブ自動的にはかなり得ないあなたの現在の事言った撮影スタッフ内 55 % で座っています。可能な彼は彼の貢献または多分他の人からの寄付の顔と体の反応を参照してください。市場ユニットを拾っているする場合の容易に位置の選択をすべてでご覧になります。これらのレビューを確認し、そのとそのほとんどになるあなたのニーズに合わせて適切な。それ評価されなければならないまた信頼できる私達すべて効果的。多くのトレンディなグッチめかし屋靴内部の購入のためのネット ガイド ストアの境界の内で。靴は最高の紙材料に関して必要な内で作り出された成長しました。